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Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

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Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#91
post #29
post #13

I really dislike the marketing around "autopilot." The common defense of Tesla's autopilot is that there are disclaimers, and the driver should always be at 100% attention. Well, look at this, copied from Tesla's website: > Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially gr…

I don't mind marketing puffery in the sense of "world's most innovative [X] ever," but I agree with your view that "Full Self-Driving Hardware" is dangerous, and branding the integrated system as AutoPilot™ only amplifies this. And I mean this without any gratuitous negativity about Tesla or Elon... but branding lane-following/collision warning/adaptive-cruise control as "AutoPilot" is far more dangerous and has far…

Here's how people interpret his statements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vNH-Q7fu7A

Yes, I'd say there's a problem.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#92
post #30

Part of me wonders whether or not we're going to see mutual improvement of infrastructure with self driving cars in the future. This seems like something that you could obviously fix by adding in some kind of passive or active flag that, to a self driving car, says "woah, you're /really/ not supposed to be here." I know we're supposed to be focusing on building systems that are as capable as humans are as drivers. Ho…

Some early driverless vehicle systems experimented with magnets embedded in the road, so it's definitely an option to install helpers to the current infrastructure to improve the safety of the autonomous vehicles.

But who should do that? Should the government allocate budget for that? If so, which manufacturers systems they should target?

Hmm maybe tech companies should not be developing competing standards or they should form some kind of consortium and agree on some guidelines that the government can use to improve safety.

Anyway, this defeats the purpose of driverless cars though because it will turn cars into trains with personal pods instead of wagons.

Just build a mass transit system with trains then, they can be made driverless easily and probably much more efficient than running each pod with its own systems. It works fine in Europe.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#93
post #19
post #8

Fun fact - given the current implementation of Autopilot, it is insane to expect an autonomous vehicle. There should be some kind of common sense/intelligence test for would-be users of Autopilot. So far, every incident involving Autopilot that I have heard about or looked at can be summarised with "Driver was being a dumbass"

When most of your users have a problem it’s not PEBKAC, it’s bad UX. Just because a door says push, doesn’t mean it looks pushable. If it doesn’t look pushable, users will pull. If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name.

If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name.

That is exactly my point.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#94
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name. The word "autopilot" originated in aviation, where it is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircr…

> without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. This is exactly what the Tesla autopilot isn’t. It requires constant hands-on control. It in fact goes as far as flashing alarms when your hands are not on.

It requires constant hands on steering wheel, but not constant control (that's just regular driving) - only readiness, just like in aviation. The difference is that you have more time to react when you're flying so hands on controls are pointless.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is even worse since they have a good product without the hyped autopilot, when I read about Musk wanting to use only cameras then I was sure Tesla self driving is not safe.

Humans drive only with cameras. Vision provides all the information needed to drive a car safely. Maybe the software isn't there, yet, but it will be.

Humans drive with vision + the experience and intuition, so we have an intuition about the laws of physics, we know what the other cars and the pedestrians are, that they have goals and they are similar to us, with imperfect visual information we can interpolate and get a full picture fo the information, an AI would need to be intelligent as a human to be able to drive as good as a human with only 2 cameras. Having radars, maps and other extra input for the self driving car will compensate for the missing intelligence, and a good radar and some deterministic software should prevent hitting static objects.

In my country drivers are tested for eye sight, hearing,reflexes before getting the green light for the driving school(so sound is also important) and self driving cars should have mandatory tests to pass after each small update, at least to not allow DIY cars made by students to just test on public roads.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#96
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When most of your users have a problem it’s not PEBKAC, it’s bad UX. Just because a door says push, doesn’t mean it looks pushable. If it doesn’t look pushable, users will pull. If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name.

If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name. The word "autopilot" originated in aviation, where it is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircr…

How many car owners know the history and nuances of autopilot as it exists for airplanes?

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name. The word "autopilot" originated in aviation, where it is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircr…

How many car owners know the history and nuances of autopilot as it exists for airplanes?

Well if they don't understand the word, they should follow the user's guide.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#98
post #45
post #11

That kind of lane marking (or lack thereof) seems very unsafe. I realize that often this is due to construction / etc but the immediately-to-the-left lane's marker was Very Clear, and didn't have a visible split in it. I had to watch it a second time to make sure that I didn't miss the indications that the lane was splitting away (other than the highway signs). This kind of thing (lack of clear markings) can be reall…

> the road engineers should have made sure the lines were painted correctly If this is the intersection, they were painted correctly: https://goo.gl/maps/QuuRiixk6Y42 But in this video, the left solid white line was more visible than the right one. For whatever reason -- a trick of light, snowplows tore it up this winter, who knows. That kind of thing is going to happen and autonomous cars need to deal with it in ord…

In the UK there would be about three times as many chevrons and they would be much thicker - see figure 4-18: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#99
post #52
post #13

I really dislike the marketing around "autopilot." The common defense of Tesla's autopilot is that there are disclaimers, and the driver should always be at 100% attention. Well, look at this, copied from Tesla's website: > Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially gr…

Add to that that Elon said "self-driving is basically a solved problem" and that they'll be doing a cross country trip soon. I'm honestly puzzled that Musk doesn't seem to be taking this seriously and is joking about it on Twitter (he has an April fool's thing about Tesla being bankrupt). As much as I love Tesla's mission, they seem screwed to me. They just issued a massive recall, their autopolit system is killing p…

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding and missing context in this comment (and many of the recent Tesla threads here on HN). I'll try to add some additional perspective inline:

> Add to that that Elon said "self-driving is basically a solved problem" and that they'll be doing a cross country trip soon.

He's referring to the approach, and while perhaps a silly statement, Tesla is very clear on their web site that there is more work to do. Immediately after the pull-quotes in the parent comment, Tesla writes in bold letters: "Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction."

Nobody gets to buy Full Self Driving without seeing a litany of disclaimers that it is not ready and that the timetable is unknown (and which are presented front and center, not buried in some lengthy contract).

> I'm honestly puzzled that Musk doesn't seem to be taking this seriously

I don't think this is right. Safety has been a first order concern in every vehicle Tesla has designed. It's the thing Musk has lead with in every vehicle presentation (even though crowds continue to find it boring). And it's been repeatedly cited by Musk and others at Tesla as a major motivation behind building Autopilot, even before NHTSA confirmed it as a safety improvement. We can debate approaches and results (and hell, even motives if you really want), but it seems clear from both words and actions that Tesla takes safety extremely seriously. I don't see the connection between a short-seller April Fool's joke on Twitter and taking Autopilot safety seriously.

> They just issued a massive recall

Yes, voluntarily, for a component that Bosch makes (and for which Bosch is paying for replacements) which may be prone to corrode, and that has never caused a known accident or injury. While we debate the seriousness of this, Ford is recalling more cars than Tesla has ever produced because the steering wheels are falling off. This is barely a footnote within the industry, is certainly not an existential threat to Tesla, and IMO it speaks all the more to how seriously they take safety.

> their autopolit system is killing people

At worst, Autopilot is preventing more crashes than it is causing. Almost certainly saving more lives than it is taking although of course proving a negative is harder. One-off situations and the element of control color how we think about crashes with automated systems, but NHTSA seems to feel that Autopilot is a significant net safety improvement.

> their financials are terrible

Eh, yes and no. They're operating on a maximization function for growth, which requires a high degree of financial risk-taking. So sure, they're in a tight spot, but it's in line with where they are on a risk/reward spectrum, and while capital may be expensive for them if the market loses confidence, there doesn't appear to be any threat that they won't be able to raise it.

> and they haven't lived up to their manufacturing promises.

Yeah. This is probably the best, fairest, and most lasting criticism of Tesla. I hope they can turn that around.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#100
post #28
post #2

Really sad to see Autopilot is a joke and nothing more than adaptive cruise control found in common cars, despite Musk claming it was a year ago [1] Any one who owns Autopilot knows the warning at :20 is NOT a crash warning at all and is just the usual warning every minute to jiggle the wheel if you don't hold the wheel firmly enough when it can't detect you holding it. 1. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/82363259…

The bad state of the road plays a huge role. There should be a "report unsafe road conditions" function in these cars to get US roads up to Belgian standards. Doesn't Ttump want to spend money on infrastructure anyway?

If autopilot only works on perfectly groomed roadways it is mostly useless.
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