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Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

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Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#41

Post by jstanley »

ars wrote: post #10
jstanley wrote: post #7

This (video) is another instance where the lanes split apart but the part in the middle has absolutely no markings to indicate that you shouldn't drive there. This (photograph) is what it should look like: http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/24/67/2246762_3a6ea81... Is this (bad line painting) common in the US? Edit: on a second viewing, I think it actually does have some chevrons, but they're very faint.

There is a solid white line. It's forbidden to cross a solid while line on the freeway. What does a solid white line mean to you (in your country)? The linked video is a different story, but the image you linked makes it quite clear not to drive there.

I didn't see the car cross a solid white line in the video that this thread is about.

The image I linked is showing what it should look like. I agree the image I linked is perfectly clear.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#42

Post by sudhirj »

friedman23 wrote: post #36
KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #32

I can totally see how a human driver can crash in this situation if he or she is solely focused on the lane markings. This puts the lie to Tesla and Mobileye's claims that camera-based computer vision is enough for autonomy just because humans use two low-res cameras to drive.

> This puts the lie to Tesla and Mobileye's claims that camera-based computer vision is enough for autonomy. How are these things related? Are you suggesting that cameras are not sufficient for self driving?

The companies are stating that they won't be using LIDAR or Radar, and that cameras are enough.

Cameras tend to rely on markers of some sort - and in cases like the markers on the road were very misleading. Even a short-sighted beginner human driver who was told to carefully follow the lanes would have made the same mistake. And cars running purely on cameras are comparably to short sighted baby human drivers.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#43

Post by mephitix »

colechristensen wrote: post #27
mephitix wrote: post #20

Autopilot marketing is bad and Elon deserves a lot of the blame, but do we still expect to be able to trust these systems enough to not put hands on the wheel and look at the road? IMO we are still in the very early stages of this work in the industry. Personally I think bugs and flaws in systems like this are normal at this stage. I would expect the same with GM Super Cruise and I wouldn't trust that either to let g…

>I think bugs and flaws in systems like this are normal at this stage I don't think you should be able to license a vehicle to drive on public roads with such "bugs and flaws". I don't have a choice, I have to interact with public roads. My local, state, and national government owes it to me to keep experimentation off of public roads that modern life is impossible without. The problem with robot cars is they fail in…

It's a good point about whether they should be on public roads. At the same time, it's crucial to their success that they are and experience outlier situations.

The hope is that by experiencing an outlier and making a mistake, the algorithms will be able to adapt to ensure that mistake never happens again. Humans today don't have this kind of networked, massively parallel mind to avoid the mistakes of others. Again, that's the hope.

I think it'll be a long time before learning algorithms will take over the wheel completely - but I think we are at or near a time when these systems can and should let us know of low confidence, insufficient data to make a decision, or equal confidence of multiple outcomes. A networked AI should be able to tell us far enough in advance (e.g. while driving) for humans to step in and make the final call, based on their own rationalization, empathy, etc.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#44

Post by slededit »

jstanley wrote: post #41
ars wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solid white line. It's forbidden to cross a solid while line on the freeway. What does a solid white line mean to you (in your country)? The linked video is a different story, but the image you linked makes it quite clear not to drive there.

I didn't see the car cross a solid white line in the video that this thread is about. The image I linked is showing what it should look like. I agree the image I linked is perfectly clear.

Its there but its faded.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#45

Post by trimbo »

gknoy wrote: post #11

That kind of lane marking (or lack thereof) seems very unsafe. I realize that often this is due to construction / etc but the immediately-to-the-left lane's marker was Very Clear, and didn't have a visible split in it. I had to watch it a second time to make sure that I didn't miss the indications that the lane was splitting away (other than the highway signs). This kind of thing (lack of clear markings) can be reall…

> the road engineers should have made sure the lines were painted correctly

If this is the intersection, they were painted correctly:

https://goo.gl/maps/QuuRiixk6Y42

But in this video, the left solid white line was more visible than the right one. For whatever reason -- a trick of light, snowplows tore it up this winter, who knows.

That kind of thing is going to happen and autonomous cars need to deal with it in order to be actually autonomous.

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#46

Post by ars »

jstanley wrote: post #41
ars wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solid white line. It's forbidden to cross a solid while line on the freeway. What does a solid white line mean to you (in your country)? The linked video is a different story, but the image you linked makes it quite clear not to drive there.

I didn't see the car cross a solid white line in the video that this thread is about. The image I linked is showing what it should look like. I agree the image I linked is perfectly clear.

Ah, I misunderstood you. I thought you linked to another example of a failure situation because you wrote "this is another instance".

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#47

Post by rohit2412 »

phobius wrote: post #22
marcell wrote: post #13

I really dislike the marketing around "autopilot." The common defense of Tesla's autopilot is that there are disclaimers, and the driver should always be at 100% attention. Well, look at this, copied from Tesla's website: > Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially gr…

could be a well-meaning tech culture screw up; Most tech people know that airplane autopilots weren't end-to-end automated for the majority of their existence

I disagree.

Look at what Elon musk and Tesla put out in the event of accidents

> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/04/25/elon-musk-...

> https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week%E2%80%99s-accide...

Elon Musk has been hyping Autopilot for what it cannot be for a long long time

> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/83og60/elon_18...

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#48

Post by TomMarius »

Swizec wrote: post #19
mdekkers wrote: post #8

Fun fact - given the current implementation of Autopilot, it is insane to expect an autonomous vehicle. There should be some kind of common sense/intelligence test for would-be users of Autopilot. So far, every incident involving Autopilot that I have heard about or looked at can be summarised with "Driver was being a dumbass"

When most of your users have a problem it’s not PEBKAC, it’s bad UX. Just because a door says push, doesn’t mean it looks pushable. If it doesn’t look pushable, users will pull. If all the PR and the CEO keep saying “autopilot”, users will use it as auto pilot. If it isn’t autopilot, it should have a different name.

The word autopilot doesn't imply autonomy. Standard adaptive cruise control alome is more powerful than any plane autopilot system (which is the origin of the word).

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#49

Post by rohit2412 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #38
phobius wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could be a well-meaning tech culture screw up; Most tech people know that airplane autopilots weren't end-to-end automated for the majority of their existence

>Most tech people know most tech people also know how "better than human" sounds to the public and the average driver. This isn't well meaning tech culture, it's a PR statement that is misleading and formulated the way it is precisely because it is a sales pitch. It's irresponsible and unethical. It should be called a 'driver assistant' and have a warning label in font size 100 that tells drivers to not treat it as a…

I wouldn't even ask for the size 100 font, but Elon musk and Tesla to stop hyping their amazing autonomous capabilities (which are all non existent)

Re: Tesla driver reproduces fatal autopilot accident [video]

#50

Post by EngineerBetter »

marcell wrote: post #13

I really dislike the marketing around "autopilot." The common defense of Tesla's autopilot is that there are disclaimers, and the driver should always be at 100% attention. Well, look at this, copied from Tesla's website: > Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially gr…

One does not buy something as expensive as a Model X without reading all the words on thr configurator page. Said with experience.

This is not a whimsical purchasing decision.

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