61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience • Hacker News Board

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#351

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

meesterdude wrote: post #333

briandear wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about reading their resume and cover letter? Looking at a github link, checking out their LinkedIn. You know, actually do YOUR job rather than wasting every single applicants time. Maybe good engineers are self unselecting because your assembly line screening process turned them off. Look at the hiring process at Apple or Google for examples of how to do it well. Apply; respond to applications with a request for…

> Apply; respond to applications with a request for a phone screen or a rejection letter. Do the phone screen. Those that pass, do a technical interview via FaceTime, then those that pass that, send them to the final round. If you reject anyone during the process, notify them immediately. nailed it. is that really so much to ask?

You may not have read what I wrote properly: that is exactly what I do at the moment. (We get vastly fewer applicants.)

Thing is, that doesn't scale too well. And when you reach the point when it doesn't, you need to do something else - particularly when you have a day job to do on top of recruitment.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#352

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #288

bartread wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. But one of the things you end up realising is you can't come up with the perfect process that will please all applicants. One thing I should have mentioned as well is how I handle referrals, because it's quite different. I always skip the assessment or telescreen in favour of some sort of face to face: - Invite them in to the office, have coffee, find out more about them, let them meet some of the team, show th…

How about reading their resume and cover letter? Looking at a github link, checking out their LinkedIn. You know, actually do YOUR job rather than wasting every single applicants time. Maybe good engineers are self unselecting because your assembly line screening process turned them off. Look at the hiring process at Apple or Google for examples of how to do it well. Apply; respond to applications with a request for…

> You know, actually do YOUR job rather than wasting every single applicants time.

I'm not wasting anyone's time. Nobody has to do anything - you can just ignore the invitation and that's fine. I'm certainly not wasting anyone's time any more than they're wasting my time submitting a subpar application for a job they're not really that interested in.

Maybe you were having a bad day but, in case not, let me say: nobody owes you a living. Like it or not, you need to earn it.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#353

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #283

bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

“An hour or two coding assessment?” You can fuck off if that’s is your first contact response. I’m interviewing YOU just as much as you are interviewing me. There is no shortage of companies hiring. There IS a shortage of quality candidates. I don’t need your job — but you do need developers. I am not going to invest 1-2 hours of time on some bullshit variation of fizz buzz or some equally ridiculous and real-world i…

That's fine. What you've just told me is you don't want the job I'm advertising; you just want a job. And you can get one. That's cool. I wish you luck, and I'm sure you'll do well.

What I'm interested in is candidates who really want this job. Those people are the ones who will put in the effort.

With all of that said: "You can #### off if that’s is your first contact response." I suggested this in response to your other comment: maybe you were having a bad day. Nevertheless, taken at face value, that remark perhaps demonstrates something of a sense of entitlement. Entitlement is something I aim to select very strongly against, because it's absolutely poisonous in a team environment. Food for thought, if you think it applies.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#354

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

amorphid wrote: post #299

meesterdude wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW when i apply to a job and get sent back a coding exercise, without first even talking to me, that's usually a red flag for me and i do not proceed with them - although I do communicate that I prefer to have some kind of chat so i know there is a culture fit, before i potentially throw hours of my life away.

I also kind of agree. If I do something for you, it's nice if you do something for me. So if I put work in to thoughtfully apply, I'm kind of expecting you to do more work than flinging a coding exercise at me. As a recruiter, I saw companies spam every candidate with a coding exercise only to never review many applications w/ completed exercises.

> As a recruiter, I saw companies spam every candidate with a coding exercise only to never review many applications w/ completed exercises.

I'm really sorry you had that experience. For what it's worth I've sat on the other side of the fence: spent a couple of hours working on something only to hear nothing in response. It sucks.

I hope I made it clear above, but my very strong recommendation is that if somebody has sent in a solution to a coding assessment, then you should be taking the time to give them personalised feedback rather than some stock response. If that didn't come across then I apologise.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#355

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

openIce wrote: post #225

bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. And yeah, I have a job in software development.

> EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week.

Great: I'm really pleased for you, and I hope you have a fulfilling career. But all you're telling me is that if you don't respond to the invitation I've sent you then you don't want the job I'm advertising that much. And guess what? I'm selecting against people who don't want the job I'm advertising that much.

Now here's an interesting thing that I've spotted before on HN: the silent majority have upvoted me, but a few commenters have taken me to task. Clearly I'm not suggesting that the majority are always right (the majority of people used to think the world was flat and look how that turned out), but it's certainly worth further consideration.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#356

Post by bartread » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

amorphid wrote: post #300

tudelo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he was saying when he has too many applicants. Either he picks a few and gives none of the others a fair chance, or he gives everyone a fair chance with something some people don't like. Our time on this planet is finite, what do you expect of him?

>> Our time on this planet is finite, what do you expect of him? Better.

> Better.

Thanks. Anything concrete or specific to add to the discussion?

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#357

Post by Thiez » Sun, Apr 01, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

bartread wrote: post #353

briandear wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“An hour or two coding assessment?” You can fuck off if that’s is your first contact response. I’m interviewing YOU just as much as you are interviewing me. There is no shortage of companies hiring. There IS a shortage of quality candidates. I don’t need your job — but you do need developers. I am not going to invest 1-2 hours of time on some bullshit variation of fizz buzz or some equally ridiculous and real-world i…

That's fine. What you've just told me is you don't want the job I'm advertising ; you just want a job. And you can get one. That's cool. I wish you luck, and I'm sure you'll do well. What I'm interested in is candidates who really want this job. Those people are the ones who will put in the effort. With all of that said: "You can #### off if that’s is your first contact response." I suggested this in response to your…

> Nevertheless, taken at face value, that remark perhaps demonstrates something of a sense of entitlement.

Many people feel entitled to being treated respectfully by their (prospective) employer. Asking people to invest hours doing useless work (which, as others have indicated, they may not even receive feedback on, just a rejection) just to get a chance at an interview, can easily be taken as a sign of disrespect: clearly you feel your time is worth so much more than that of a potential employee that you ask them to invest hours before you'll invest minutes. The potential employee is treated as a beggar rather than a trained professional.

> Entitlement is something I aim to select very strongly against, because it's absolutely poisonous in a team environment.

I'm sure those who feel entitled to basic respect are glad you are selecting against them then :)

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#358

Post by clappski » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #244

arkh wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think that the French Compagnons should add software developers to their list of professions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France if you don't know what it is.

English equivalent: https://www.wcit.org.uk/members/anon/new.html?destination=%2... "The Worshipful Company of Information Technologists". Slightly weird mapping of the traditional Establishment to our industry. Their home page includes items such as "Capercaillie Shoot" (not clear if this involves real grouse as it's in Essex), and "Report on the Funeral of Brigadier Tim Hackworth OBE PhD"

They have their weird titles because they're a livery company, similar to the Worshipful Company of Marketors (marketors.org/). Perhaps one the day WCIT will get a Royal Charter as well. You can read more about livery companies and their relationship to the City here: https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages...

I'm pretty sure the shooting is just clays, and not live birds.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#359

Post by clappski » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:27 AM UTC

alicorn wrote: post #341

amorphid wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. Be careful about going there. Discrimination is illegal & unnecessary.

I work in a company with a lot of staff from India (TCS consultants). I can confirm that some of them have a fairly flexible relationship with reality and facts, and it can be incredibly irritating at times. I agree that it is most likely a cultural thing: decorating / distorting facts to achieve goals is looked upon more favorably in some cultures than others, with all the moral hazard and distorted incentives that…

TCS supply L1/L2 internal support services where I work, and while the more senior members of the teams are very good at their jobs and take a proactive part in providing supporting, the ones who have been there less than 5 years (made up number, the less experienced/greener staff) struggle to follow simple instructions without several confirmations of the actions, even when pretty comprehensive documentation has been provided. It's quite an interesting, and often frustrating, dynamic.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#360

Post by clappski » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:37 AM UTC

bartread wrote: post #355

openIce wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. And yeah, I have a job in software development.

> EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. Great: I'm really pleased for you, and I hope you have a fulfilling career. But all you're telling me is…

I think software developers have a very interesting relationship with the hiring process - there's an unspoken attitude that our skills are highly in demand, so therefore companies should be trying to hire us rather than us trying to get a job with a company.

In reality, while software development skills are in high demand, there's also a very high supply segmented across different skillsets and industries (and yes, in lots of industries being a software and domain SME is important). Companies have had lots of success using take home projects or short assessments for technical skills like HackerRank to separate both the wheat from the chaff and remove those who don't want that particular role that much (as you said).