Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#331

Post by icc97 » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

Is there a specific system for traffic sign detection? I'd have thought you could have a system that is dedicated to spotting traffic signs in the current country with a significantly higher accuracy than cat detection.

Even a small part of a sign should be enough. They're designed to be easy to spot.

It seems like we just set neural networks up to recognise all objects and assume they'll recognise simple objects too. However typically how humans learn is through simple cartoons first and then layer on top of that rather than the other way round.

Edit: should have done some googling before opening my mouth [0] [1]

[0]: https://amundtveit.com/2017/07/13/traffic-sign-detection-wit...

[1]: http://www.bartlab.org/Dr.%20Jackrit's%20Papers/ney/1.TRAFFI...

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#332

Post by zouhair » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #204

albertop wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great. Thanks for posting.

The video is funny. Re the first argument Top Gear wrote a script with the Telsa breaking down and faked the thing so I can see why Musk was annoyed. They lost the court case because Top Gear argued Tesla couldn't show they'd hurt sales.

It is obvious he didn't watch Top Gear, Jeremy Clarkson shat on many many cars, just ask Renault or Peugeot.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#333

Post by elihu » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #19

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs to be made for auto-pilot. If your auto-pilot acts up at all. Just turn it off and don't use it till it's resolved. All you need is one incident to be dead, so if you get a chance to observe any abnormalities, consider it a blessing. Something that will also be g…

> The car will save the last 60 seconds so the manufacturer can analyze it to debug and figure out what went wrong.

Ideally, this would be sent to the NTSB as well to determine if they need to issue a recall and possibly also shared with the public if the car's owner is okay with that.

Issuing a bug report to the manufacturer is fine if the manufacturer is being responsive, but fixes take time and large companies don't always put a high priority on fixing bugs. Sharing bug information more widely increases their accountability and I think potential buyers have a right to know about safety-critical flaws before they buy a car.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#334

Post by Baeocystin » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #322

ineedasername wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Same lane, same time of day, same time of year (sunset/sunrise changes in lighting conditions) same weather patterns, same level of traffic. The combinatorics involved expand the possibilities to the point that some scenariors may have had little or no coverage from a dataset with 85k observations.

Yes, Tesla needs to not be releasing PR targeted for the masses, they should be releasing statements with a scientific level of information. Whether it is disingenuous or not, whether it was rushed statement, they perhaps need to better scrutinize. It would be fine if they released the holistic information, so long as they get into full depth possible. They need to act as stewards we can trust, if they fail to do so…

>I would argue too there is a need for AI image analysis - could perhaps be crowdsourced - to analyze the structure/state of a highway or any road.

I fully agree with you here. Urban areas are too dynamic to rely on static maps and local LOS only. This sort of data sharing is going to be a necessity, IMO, to achieve level 4 or level 5 autonomy.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#335

Post by irlib » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #225

hcnews wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who writes software (haven't ever worked for Tesla), I think this statement does provide some credibility. It probably means that the visualization system does understand such scenes and is able to navigate it. Ofcourse, this statement by itself doesn't absolve Tesla's software of any error. It's important to know the actual root cause before saying who/what is wrong or not, something which the HN communit…

> doesn't absolve Tesla's software of any error As someone who works on software for one of the automakers, I also want to note that there seems to be a lot of focus on the software... but it's also very possible the problem was with the hardware: something in the vision or sensor system was incorrectly installed, defective, was calibrated incorrectly, lost calibration during use, etc. I'm sure the software can alway…

His car does not always veers.

He owns the car/work in apple/drive the same road to work - for about half year (i.e. >100 times) and according to the article he has just about 7-10 veering incidents here. Like one or two per month.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#336

Post by r00fus » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

Symmetry wrote: post #301

r00fus wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that the barrier doesn't have yellow reflective striping or any of those sand barrel thingies.

The barrier does have a crumpling structure but someone else had collided with it shortly before the Tesla crash and it hadn't been replaced yet.

Investigating further, it looks like that barrier had been down for over 7+ days (they say due to weather) [1].

Looking at the image and estimating the traffic flowing, it's simply amazing that CalTrans is allowed to take a week to fix such things. How long does it take to put up some sand barrels? This situation was made more dangerous because while many such barriers are used in freeway exits, the left lane speeds can be much higher. 7 days + weather is a long time to fix (some states require 3 days).

I get the feeling that Tesla/Waymo and other SDC manufacturers will be more proactive in reporting unsafe conditions as a priority to fix. Such a partnership could improve safety for everyone.

[1] http://abc7news.com/automotive/exclusive-i-team-investigates...

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#337

Post by animex » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #195

The path into the barrier looks a lot like a lane. https://imgur.com/a/iMY1x And the old striping is lightly visible as well.

So all prankster would have to do is curve a lane line into a wall and game over?

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#338

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 9:49 PM UTC

sah2ed wrote: post #309

nitrogen wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simulations can make use of random number generators and could in theory, following the lead of a project like afl, adaptively find algorithmic weak spots.

Simulations are only useful up to a point. Trying to use them to model real world scenarios would be useless in practice, due to the Ludic fallacy [0]. Real life is too complex to be modeled in any simulation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludic_fallacy

I don't think the connection to the referenced fallacy is nearly strong enough to serve as a QED on its own. It's also seemingly promoted only by one person.

As for modeling real life with simulations, the data exists for every type of accident a human has encountered. If you incorporate such into a simulation, plus randomly vary every free parameter, then your simulation will cover more scenarios than any human driver can possibly experience.

Thus, simulations should be able to help an autonomous vehicle outperform humans by a large margin, which is the only goal that matters.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#339

Post by chmaynard » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #177

I love Tesla to death and in most cases will defend them beyond the point of reason. But I took a test drive in a model S for the first time earlier this year and almost immediately noticed autopilot’s extremely unreliable behavior— it would swerve out of lanes in ordinary situations that should have been easy to handle. The second I saw that, hat was it: I would never use it again before many years of testing and im…

> I love Tesla to death and in most cases will defend them beyond the point of reason.

Wow, that attitude strikes me as a little creepy. If you admire Musk to the point of hero worship, that's perfectly fine. But why worship a corporation?

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#340

Post by rowyourboat » Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 10:28 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #296

rowyourboat wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but most cars in the luxury-sedan segment (and quite a few compact cars) can do that, so this is not autopilot-specific.

Yeah, and automatic emergency braking is a clear-cut enough win for safety that there's been talk of making it mandatory on all new cars in a few years' time. Tesla seem to have adopted a deliberate strategy of conflating the safety benefits of an uncontroversial feature many cars have with the much more questionable safety of their autopilot mode in order to promote the latter. The big example Elon Musk was pushing…

Automatic emergency braking is already mandatory for trucks in the EU.