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Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

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Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#61

Post by antirez »

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road."

Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually the guy that died reporting that there was an issue there, and later crashing there, looks like a very interesting hint about a potential software bug that should be investigated. The Tesla statement is the equivalent of "works in my laptop" at a bigger scale. Also consider that 85k times since 2015 means that potentially only a fraction of those trips were executed with the latest version of the software. Moreover the street layout may now be kinda different triggering some new condition.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#62

Post by shawn »

antirez wrote: post #61

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road." Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually…

Heisenbugs in AI are also interesting. As computers approach sentience, it will become progressively harder to explain their behavior.

Why did you eat a bagel instead of eggs this morning? Usually there isn't a scientific answer.

In the present, AI models are already so complicated that it seems hard to get reproducible diagnostic results, short of just saving every frame of data that the car's sensors pick up. And for video that seems rather prohibitive. Imagine collecting all sensor data for each of those 200 trips per day along the entire stretch of road.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#63

Post by debt »

antirez wrote: post #61

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road." Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually…

I agree. I find it hypocritical of Tesla to talk about numbers in thousands in terms of Model 3 production, but low 100's is a totally sufficient metric for testing autopilot.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#64

Post by [deleted] »

segmondy wrote: post #19

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs to be made for auto-pilot. If your auto-pilot acts up at all. Just turn it off and don't use it till it's resolved. All you need is one incident to be dead, so if you get a chance to observe any abnormalities, consider it a blessing. Something that will also be g…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#65

Post by TallGuyShort »

dazc wrote: post #54
segmondy wrote: post #19

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs to be made for auto-pilot. If your auto-pilot acts up at all. Just turn it off and don't use it till it's resolved. All you need is one incident to be dead, so if you get a chance to observe any abnormalities, consider it a blessing. Something that will also be g…

'I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out.' My only experience of automated driving is the feature where you can set a maximum speed. This is useful in the UK since average speed cameras are commonplace on the motorway network nowadays and it is easy for your concentration to lapse and drift over the cur…

I rented a car that had active cruise control and lane assist. I drove most of the way from Oakland to San Jose with out touching any of the controls, except maybe the accelerator once or twice. But? I got to my destination exhausted and in a little pain because I had sat tensed up ready to take the controls again at a moment's notice. Partly that's because these features are not intended to be a complete self-driving solution. But partly it's exactly what you said - I wouldn't trust it absolutely anyway and would want to stay alert. It's easy for me to stay alert when I'm driving and not just supervising.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#67

Post by hcnews »

antirez wrote: post #61

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road." Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually…

As someone who writes software (haven't ever worked for Tesla), I think this statement does provide some credibility. It probably means that the visualization system does understand such scenes and is able to navigate it.

Ofcourse, this statement by itself doesn't absolve Tesla's software of any error. It's important to know the actual root cause before saying who/what is wrong or not, something which the HN community (and in general Internet/people) isn't good at.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#68

Post by Baeocystin »

lopmotr wrote: post #55
MBCook wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly worried about that when writing the comment. The car should have avoided it (based on Tesla’s usual claims). But Tesla and everyone else says the owner is still ultimately responsible because AutoPilot isn’t a 100% situation. If my car did something funky like randomly accelerate or turn hard at a given intersection and the manufacturer refused to fix it I’d stop driving through there. Why push your luck?…

We adapt to weird behavior all the time. I once found my brake pedal went right to the floor while driving. Then it fixed itself. I drove carefully after that but still kept using it. The other day my engine started revving up uncontrollably until I pulled over and turned it off. It's been fine since. I still drive it. Would you blame someone if their check engine light was on or the steering felt a bit wobbly?

100% serious answer- if what you are saying is true, and you do not immediately stop driving your car on public roads and take it to a mechanic for a thorough inspection, you are toying with both your own and other people's lives. Cars do not fix themselves, and brakes that drop to the floor are seriously compromised. The next time that happens, there may not be enough fluid left in the reservoir to repressurize the system.

As for blame, the check engine light is for emissions gear, and will not effect safe vehicle operation. A wobbly front end, however, can indicate a serious problem, and yes, it is the driver's responsibility to operate a safe vehicle on public roads, and it would in fact be their fault if something happened because they did not perform proper maintenance.

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