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Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

reuters.com

451–460 of 487 posts

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being able to undo transactions is a feature not a bug of the modern financial system. Best takedown of cryptocurrencies that I've seen. Explains, as succinctly as possible, the fatal flaw in the idea. I'm gonna steal this line for the future.

yeah that’s also why cash and gold are worthless XD. who in the world would take cold hard cash or gold bullion in exchange for goods??!! you can’t reverse it!! and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it.

> you can’t reverse it!!

> and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it.

Those are contradictory statements. The government can absolutely reverse a criminal taking your money by arresting them and returning the stolen cash.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#452
post #4

My question is if your conclusion is that blockchain is a solution in search of a problem, what was all that effort being spent on (not just in finance, but everywhere blockchain is being considered)? I'm not saying that blockchain is not a valid solution to a problem, but as a veteran of the online industry, I can say I've seen a lot of hype around new technology, actual effort being put into it, and then the realiz…

My major questions have always been: where is the business value in blockchain applications? what can a blockchain app do that can't be done by non-blockchain (beyond decentralization - bc I don't think this produces much business value)?

Atomic transactions of money on one hand, and ownership on the other.

For big amounts, transfers of money are either slow (big wire transfers between banks) or unsecure (cash, how do you know if those bills are real?). Therefore either the money or ownership stays insecurely in limbo on one side.

Therefore escrow services currently provide a solution for this, or notaries. But in the end they are still not atomic, and not free either.

If both money and proof of ownership are both on blockchain, you can do a REAL atomic transaction. This could work for selling cars, houses, etc, on an international level without much fuzz.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#453
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a logistics background, coordinating tracability data is painful within a company , even with help of ERP like SAP. But when you need tracability across an industry , it becomes almost impossible. I had professional experience in an industry where we had to go to the plants to ensure rolls of paper certified from suppliers using responsibly-managed forests were physically separated from the non-certified…

I never quite got my head around the value proposition for distributed ledgers in logistics ('smart warehouses / supply chains') and manufacturing ('industry 4.0'). Say you want to trace eco paper rolls around the globe. What could the blockchain do for you? Who are the nodes/miners/coins in this application? When you suspect some intermediate in the paper chain to exchange eco paper for cheaper ordinary paper, how d…

Logistics are a great place for this technology, but first you must purge your mind of Cryptotokens and their economics. They aren't applicable for a logistics use case.

To understand this, first you have to understand why we structure mining. In the case of Bitcoin or Ethereum, you need a method that allows any arbitrary computational device to verify and add to a given blockchain. In lieu of trusting that device, the blockchain makes it do a massive amount of busywork, called mining, to prove it isn't bullshitting the network. Different implementations have different busywork, but it's designed to make it hard to change the network by arbitrary devices. This is why we can allow any untrusted device on the network.

In the case of logistics, we are already operating under some amount of trust. This is through a mechanism of certification of goods, suppliers, verifying the goods are what they say they are, and the verification of those approvals and certifications. Even in a trusted environment, managing that coordination of certifying and verifying is slow, bureaucratic, and grows with the size of the logistic network. Additionally, many supply chains generally certify new entrants before allowing them to contribute. This creates a barrier to entry when establishing trust in the same way busywork creates a barrier for devices. Then there are whole units of auditors that go through and recheck all those certifications to make sure the whole chain is authentic with regards to the goods moving through it.

Blockchain technology is a mechanism of creating certifications (signing a transaction) and verifying those certifications (miners/verifiers on a chain) that can operate in a decentralized but coordinated way. It allows for the whole system to better coordinate information and certification that used to be done manually.

Did you notice I never mentioned tokens?

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't really have a choice, though. If you want to do business with most people, you're going to be doing it in inflationary currencies.

But is that the way it should be? Also, this isn't universally true. There are some vendors that started accepting Bitcoin as payment. Some of them stopped accepting it a few months ago when transaction fees were insane , but there are still some that do. You can even get debit cards that automatically convert to fiat on the backend, so the consumer can hold crypto and pay in fiat.

"But is that the way it should be?"

Unless you want to be able to force others to accept whatever you want to give as payment, sure.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah that’s also why cash and gold are worthless XD. who in the world would take cold hard cash or gold bullion in exchange for goods??!! you can’t reverse it!! and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it.

> you can’t reverse it!! > and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it. Those are contradictory statements. The government can absolutely reverse a criminal taking your money by arresting them and returning the stolen cash.

Can't the government do the same with cryptocurrencies though? They can also "arrest the criminal and return the stolen cryptocurrencies". Not very practical 99% of the time though...

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#456
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it not? It's slow, expensive and wasteful. You could host a regular MySQL on commodity hardware that could handle ten times the rate of transactions of the bitcoin blockchain. You could publish signed dumps publicly for people to replicate and monitor as they see fit. The only interesting feature of bitcoin is the trustless consensus but it's not as useful or revolutionary as the hype would have you believe. I…

I guess you've never heard of CQRS then. Blockchains are not on-demand databases, but rather sources of truth from which derived, queryable databases can be constructed.

CQRS is great. But you can implement it very efficiently using standard logging techniques. Blockchains are just a slow, inefficient implementation of CQRS.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#457
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup being able to undo transactions is a feature not a bug of the modern financial system. EDIT: it also protects you in cases where someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to make a transaction.

> it also protects you in cases where someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to make a transaction. No. The only case when someone ever threatened to hold gun to my head and demanded money was taxation. With cryptocurrency it's possible to avoid that, because they don't know how much money you have. And even when they do know, it's much harder for them to take it, they need to know password.

[deleted]

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah that’s also why cash and gold are worthless XD. who in the world would take cold hard cash or gold bullion in exchange for goods??!! you can’t reverse it!! and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it.

> you can’t reverse it!! > and guess what, someone can hold a gun to your head and take it. Those are contradictory statements. The government can absolutely reverse a criminal taking your money by arresting them and returning the stolen cash.

yeah unless they spent it, or hid it, etc... just as easy to get that cash back as it would be to get the criminals private key.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

assets like everything from real estate records to money to corporate stocks to car ownership to birth certificates. What you call vagueness I call short sightedness and failing to see the big picture. It has been done before with all major breakthroughs since the applications are not immediately obvious to everyone.

Why would they need a blockchain for birth certificates? Why not just use a database?

There are a large number of people who... believe there was a conspiracy to produce a falsified birth certificate for the previous president of the United States. If it were on a system where the original record could be viewed in a transparent forgery resistant way then that wouldn't have been an issue. Maybe.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about scanning a barcode or a RFID reader ? This information is already read and stored in ERP. Is it such a technological step to imagine a RFID reader or an ERP module that would write the information in a blockchain? I don't see the objection here. The blockchain would be a decentralized papertrail accessible to all actors of the supply chain, down to the end consumer ideally, instead of the current nightmare…

lazy actor: I print out the barcodes, and stick them on the paper rolls at random bad actor: I manufacture the cheaper rolls, and stick labels for the expensive ones on, and scan them How will "the blockchain" prevent either scenario

Lazy actor: receiver will scan the codes and see that data doesn't match, thus they can't trust the sender.

Bad actor: unless you intend to use rolls by yourself, what do you gain? You can't sell the better rolls as such, because you have broken chain of trust.

But such arguments lead nowhere. Of course you can come up with scenarios which can be misused. The real challenge (and one that is being solved by lots of people in crypto world - well, at least those that aren't consumed by greed) is finding scenarios that work. The ability to store information cheaply and immutably can change many industries, but technology must be deployed in such way that it makes sense.

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