Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

news.berkeley.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 458 posts

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#81

Post by stephen_g »

patorjk wrote: post #6

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced this with an 8am biology class I was required to take. It wrecked my whole day. About 1/3 of the way through I just started skipping the class and then later getting notes of the lecture from a friend of mine. It ended up working dramatically well. I got an A,…

My worst semester at University I had three 8am lectures... I knew I was a bit of a night owl, but at this point I didn't realise that I actually had a severe sleep disorder. I had just assumed that what people said (you just have to be disciplined, just go to be earlier, etc.) was potentially true, which was demoralising. It was actually pretty liberating to find out about differences in circadian rhythms. I still get similar bad advice, which is about as useful as "just be happier" is to a clinically depressed person...

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#82

Post by briandear »

jaltekruse wrote: post #46
taneq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine that there were groups of humans who did this, but they got out-competed by humans who gave a higher priority to work.

There are several countries in Europe that give maternity/paternity leave and vacation time to all full time employees by law. The result is not a massive drop in productivity, on the contrary studies have indicated higher overall productivity in many cases. There are things besides short term business gain that societies can invest in that can end up with everyone better off in the long run, even economically.

What does that have to do with school start times? Do parents take “parental leave” every morning to take their kids to school later? Of course not.

And maternity/paternity leave has little to do with school age kids.

France has the “genius” idea to have school only 4 days per week in most places. So Wednesdays off. Parents have to figure out what to do with their kids — they can’t exactly take off every Wednesday. And why does this 4 day week persist? Not because of ideal learning outcomes but because of teacher unions.

Europe isn’t better at everything and America isn’t worse at everything as people often like to suggest. And all of those great “benefits” people like to point out — they aren’t free. Salaries are dramatically lower in Europe and taxes higher — so even when all of these benefits are tallied, Americans still have more disposable income along with lower unemployment and a far more robust economy.

For sure there are great things about Europe, but don’t minimize America because it’s fashionable. Look at actual numbers.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#83

Post by huehehue »

nicholasjarnold wrote: post #25
endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

I too struggled for years during adolescence with early school start times and being generally super tired for the first 1 or 2 classes of each day. As an adult I also realize the pragmatic nature of school start times supporting our fairly typical 9-to-5 work culture. However, I think it's important that we try to learn from this emerging data. If a body of empirical evidence starts strongly suggesting that starting…

There are different methods of schooling! Granted, they're more work for the parent, usually costly, might not work with a normal 9-5 schedule, and a bunch of other potential problems.

But if you have the resources, you can look for what you believe would be the best path for your future kid.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#84

Post by DanCarvajal »

brightball wrote: post #39
endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

Schools can still help with this by trying to schedule the core academic stuff later in the the day and the less mentally intense stuff like PE earlier in the morning. My kids' elementary school actually does this. They tell parents "if your child has a doctor's appointment or needs to be out for a portion of the day, schedule it at the beginning or end of the day to make sure they don't miss anything important."

Anecdotally I definitely did better in High School when I had band first thing in the morning.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#85

Post by ukulele »

tehwalrus wrote: post #65
Decade wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where is the European Apple? European Google? European Facebook? Even the European Intel, ARM, now belongs to Japan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no... The USA is below both Norway and Ireland in the rankings table of GDP per capita, pretty consistently over the different measurements.

About 1/4 of Norway's GDP is oil and gas (US is about 7%). Ireland is a particularly ironic choice given their recent GDP growth and subsequent dip were mostly from being a tax haven for wealthy US companies.

I wouldn't personally attribute either of these to better educational or societal systems.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#86

Post by briandear »

tehwalrus wrote: post #60
wafflesraccoon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

The UK. https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights (I was actually shocked that Americans don't always get paid holiday.) Note that we also have 6 months paid maternity leave, and 1 weeks paid paternity leave, with both of those extendable on a lower pay rate. New legislation from the 2010-2015 government allows parents to share this leave, even if they work at different companies, and start/stop it during the tim…

The U.K. gets a “paid” holiday?

So why are salaries in the U.K. so much lower than the US?

Seems like the only one paying for holidays is the worker.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#87

Post by notheguyouthink »

devy wrote: post #78
endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

> It starts this early so parents can get their kids to school and start working afterwards, without getting fired. As a working parent, totally agree. Employers should be more accommodating for working parents just like they do for maternity/paternity programs, but they haven't yet. Big corporations with HR and dedicated benefit personnels are more tolerable than most startups, unfortunately.

comment as been deleted, as much as HN can let me...

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#88

Post by maxerickson »

taneq wrote: post #29
maxerickson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the horror if we gave other things equal priority with work when we made decisions about how to organize our society. Oh well.

I'd imagine that there were groups of humans who did this, but they got out-competed by humans who gave a higher priority to work.

The story of western civilization is work smarter and rest more, so good luck climbing the hill you've pointed at.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#89

Post by Decade »

foepys wrote: post #64
Decade wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where is the European Apple? European Google? European Facebook? Even the European Intel, ARM, now belongs to Japan.

Why the focus on IT? Automobiles, trains, embedded controllers, space and commercial flight, weapon systems, high-tech manufacturing. All those are areas where Europe has at least one industry leader. There are so many companies you never hear about because you aren't in the industry they operate in.

Because the question was about outcompeting. Automobiles, etc., there are many competitors, including some American. And weapon systems, there is a national security reason to maintain regional leaders, no matter how inefficient.

In IT, I find it funny that Google has a higher market share in Europe than in the US.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#90

Post by cgriswald »

wpasc wrote: post #53

I disagree with ideas that school schedules should shift later. I am a night owl myself, but our "natural" sleep cycle certainly more or less falls in line with school times. We have fully disrupted our circadian rhythms with our lifestyles and especially screens/lights at night. Before artificial light, our sleep/wake schedule was set by the sun. I know we live in a different world today, but I feel like shifting ou…

It is a mischaracterization to say this is all the result of bad habits. Asking teens and young adults to perform between 6 and 9 is like asking a fully mature adult to perform between 3 and 6.

> I am a night owl myself, but our "natural" sleep cycle certainly more or less falls in line with school times.

This is absolutely not true for adolescents continuing through young adulthood. Adolescents naturally have a delay in morning alertness levels compared to fully mature adults and other children and also have sleepiness set in more slowly/later in the evening than either other group. It is not (necessarily) poor sleep hygiene which causes teens to stay up later, but their own biological processes.

> Before artificial light, our sleep/wake schedule was set by the sun.

This seems to be an argument in favor of changing times. My highschool started at 7:10. Assuming I woke up an hour before to shower, dress, and catch the bus, that means I had to wake before the sun every day of my highschool career. The only time the sun rose earlier than 6:10 was during the summer when I didn't have school.

Post reply on HN