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Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

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Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#21

Post by wambotron »

zaroth wrote: post #7

Our school district just spent the last year trying to convince parents we should shuffle around start times to make high school later and elementary school earlier. It was a complete clusterfuck. Both teacher and parents alike at both the elementary and the high schools all had a million reasons why it couldn’t possibly work. Since there are a limited number of buses which are shared, you can’t move one start time w…

The school district my kids are in does this. High school starts 1 hour after elementary, and the buses just run the same routes twice.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#22

Post by lostctown »

patorjk wrote: post #6

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced this with an 8am biology class I was required to take. It wrecked my whole day. About 1/3 of the way through I just started skipping the class and then later getting notes of the lecture from a friend of mine. It ended up working dramatically well. I got an A,…

I'd say you owe that friend a round or two.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#23

Post by InitialLastName »

endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

That emphasizes that the purpose of school isn't as much to educate children as it is to provide an economy of scale for babysitting so that more adults can participate in the workforce.

I wonder how that dynamic will interact with the decreasing need for adults in the workforce.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#24

Post by existencebox »

patorjk wrote: post #6

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced this with an 8am biology class I was required to take. It wrecked my whole day. About 1/3 of the way through I just started skipping the class and then later getting notes of the lecture from a friend of mine. It ended up working dramatically well. I got an A,…

Anecdotally, (and as a story for anyone similar to me/with kids similar to how I was) I spent most of my life until college thinking that school/learning was the most miserable process in the world, and that I was terrible at it.

It turns out, waking up at ~6 every morning, and usually not going to bed until 10/12 thanks to after school classes and homework, left me with less sleep than I even need to be functional now as an adult and turned highschool into a special sort of "kid jail".

I got punished innumerable times for sleeping in class, and probably spent more time by % fighting to keep my eyes open than I did paying attention. (I had at least one teacher who threw chalk at students who slept, it was such a common occasion)

This changed like a lightswitch when in college I was able to assert that I didn't take any classes before 10. By the end of my masters I had a 4.0 (highschool had been a struggle to maintain a 3.0 with much easier classes), although it took most of that time to re-learn how to learn and pay attention. The difference was so stark it puts a fire in my belly just to think about the amount of resistance I've seen to changing this status quo. I recognize this is "for adults/work" but as a working adult I refuse to concede that we can't come up with a solution that doesn't so entirely steamroll some kids for being wired to need more sleep.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#25

Post by nicholasjarnold »

endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

I too struggled for years during adolescence with early school start times and being generally super tired for the first 1 or 2 classes of each day. As an adult I also realize the pragmatic nature of school start times supporting our fairly typical 9-to-5 work culture.

However, I think it's important that we try to learn from this emerging data. If a body of empirical evidence starts strongly suggesting that starting school 1-2 hours later will improve information retention and learning, and if we collectively wish to maximize the success and potential of our youth then we must begin to change in order to support these goals.

I hope that by the time my future child reaches school age we will have begun to embrace a more data-driven approach to learning along with the necessary support structures to support such a change. Perhaps labor laws could be constructed to allow for more morning flexibility for parents that can demonstrate they are the legal guardian of a child whose age is between some range. I'll hope for the best.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#26

Post by otoburb »

patorjk wrote: post #6

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced this with an 8am biology class I was required to take. It wrecked my whole day. About 1/3 of the way through I just started skipping the class and then later getting notes of the lecture from a friend of mine. It ended up working dramatically well. I got an A,…

This strategy worked well for me too until Circuit Theory. As an "early morning"[] class it was easy to bum the notes from somebody else, but the darn quizzes tanked my grades enough that I had to repeat the course the next available semester.

Before Children

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#27

Post by otakucode »

mi100hael wrote: post #13

At the same time, the point of college for most kids is to prepare them for a white collar job. If there's a huge client meeting at 10am and there's still 3 hours of preparation to do before they arrive, no one's going to be very sympathetic to the excuse that you have "social jet lag." Expecting college adults to get out of bed before 10 is hardly a substantial burden.

Adolescence is not permanent. Adolescents require significantly more sleep than any other age group, so the jet lag would be substantially reduced for adults.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#28

Post by maaaats »

That's what I loved most about my college/university: no mandatory attendance. Could wake up when I wanted, and start studying at a more suitable time.

I also have a hard time following multiple lectures during the same day. So a nice additional effect was that I, instead of attending, would study more efficiently in my own way.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#29

Post by taneq »

maxerickson wrote: post #16
endymi0n wrote: post #10

I used to have lots of problems getting up early and always championed later times. Growing up through my twenties, it was great seeing finally seeing more and more evidence for a later school start and I was hopeful for future teens. But it wasn't until my first kid that I finally understood that school doesn't start this early because it's good for the learning experience. It starts this early so parents can get th…

Imagine the horror if we gave other things equal priority with work when we made decisions about how to organize our society. Oh well.

I'd imagine that there were groups of humans who did this, but they got out-competed by humans who gave a higher priority to work.

Re: Poor Grades Tied to Class Times That Don’t Match Our Biological Clocks

#30

Post by RHSeeger »

robterrell wrote: post #12
zaroth wrote: post #7

Our school district just spent the last year trying to convince parents we should shuffle around start times to make high school later and elementary school earlier. It was a complete clusterfuck. Both teacher and parents alike at both the elementary and the high schools all had a million reasons why it couldn’t possibly work. Since there are a limited number of buses which are shared, you can’t move one start time w…

It's happening where I live too. It's amazing how quickly the discussion moves past "what's best for students" and into the "it's annoying to me personally" and "when I was a kid, we suffered" conversations.

To be fair, "I got fired from my job because I couldn't get there on time anymore because school starts too late" isn't particularly good for the children of the people getting fired either.
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