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Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

reuters.com

431–440 of 487 posts

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#431
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a logistics background, coordinating tracability data is painful within a company , even with help of ERP like SAP. But when you need tracability across an industry , it becomes almost impossible. I had professional experience in an industry where we had to go to the plants to ensure rolls of paper certified from suppliers using responsibly-managed forests were physically separated from the non-certified…

I never quite got my head around the value proposition for distributed ledgers in logistics ('smart warehouses / supply chains') and manufacturing ('industry 4.0'). Say you want to trace eco paper rolls around the globe. What could the blockchain do for you? Who are the nodes/miners/coins in this application? When you suspect some intermediate in the paper chain to exchange eco paper for cheaper ordinary paper, how d…

Sorry, I replied somewhere else, I don't feel like copypasting, but roughly the blockchain would not prevent false declaration. It would 1) considerably simplify the non-fraudulent papertrail 2) provide an auditable record for investigation in case of either fraud investigation or certification audit

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#432
post #416
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never quite got my head around the value proposition for distributed ledgers in logistics ('smart warehouses / supply chains') and manufacturing ('industry 4.0'). Say you want to trace eco paper rolls around the globe. What could the blockchain do for you? Who are the nodes/miners/coins in this application? When you suspect some intermediate in the paper chain to exchange eco paper for cheaper ordinary paper, how d…

I think the OP stated that blockchains would alleviate the bureaucratic pains of international trade considerably. As bureaucracy requires labour, which is costly, I feel the value proposition is plausible. Another feature is not related to inventory. Ledgers that have acute accountability features attached, where some stakeholders may have incentives to fake the records. Like, for example transport truck driving sch…

these are very good additional points, thank you

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#433
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptography lets you make signatures that can't be falsified by anybody not having your key but that's it. It doesn't mean much if you have no way to know who is actually behind the signature. I could generate a PGP key for Bill Gates right now, distribute it to the keyservers and sign a message saying that "I owe simias on hacker news one billion dollars". You could verify that the message was signed by my key beyo…

I know that, but I don't understand why it is seen as such a roadblock. A supplier would add its tag on thousands of parts each day, which would find their way into thousands of products and thousands of end-consumers each day. The suppliers would be well identified by their physical location and the physical products they produce. I think people raising these objections have not worked in a physical supply chain in…

More like a rogue actor sending you a truckload of parts that are not what they're supposed to be.

Take for instance the blockchain De Beers (the diamond cartel) says it wants to create to track diamonds. Things like country of origin, quality etc... Tracking diamonds is especially important because you want to make sure that the diamonds you buy are not from a conflict zone, the so-called "blood diamonds".

Now imagine that you have a completely trustless bitcoin-like blockchain to track this. What prevents an African warlord from pretending to be Canadian and create fake entries for its diamonds into the blockchain pretending that they were mined in America? Then he can trade them without issue. The blockchain is unable to detect that a user hasn't the right nationality, nor can it track the physical origin and location of a diamond without having to trust somebody to tell it. Ergo your trustless blockchain is no more valuable than a random file on pastebin.com.

To solve this issue you'd need some trusted certification authority that would audit miners and grant them access to the blockchain once they've asserted that they are who they pretend to be. But if you do this then you have a trusted 3rd party and the blockchain can advantageously be replaced by any regular database of your choice managed by this 3rd party.

You can apply this reasoning to any physical good, from organic produce (how do you make sure that the producer isn't lying about making organic oranges?) to paper rolls (how do you know the producer isn't lying about using sustainable foresting techniques?). You need trusted third parties certifying and controlling these things to weed out cheaters.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#434
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptography lets you make signatures that can't be falsified by anybody not having your key but that's it. It doesn't mean much if you have no way to know who is actually behind the signature. I could generate a PGP key for Bill Gates right now, distribute it to the keyservers and sign a message saying that "I owe simias on hacker news one billion dollars". You could verify that the message was signed by my key beyo…

I know that, but I don't understand why it is seen as such a roadblock. A supplier would add its tag on thousands of parts each day, which would find their way into thousands of products and thousands of end-consumers each day. The suppliers would be well identified by their physical location and the physical products they produce. I think people raising these objections have not worked in a physical supply chain in…

I have worked on factory floors before but honestly I don't see how it's relevant. Toyota and similarly competent manufacturers are are perfectly capable of using centralized databases to track the motion of parts around extremely convoluted manufacturing plants. Blockchain primarily solves the double-spend problem of a distributed spreadsheet. So some supplier can't claim to have sent the same parts to two factories on some spreadsheet. That's solving a non-problem. I expect blockchain to have a massive impact on industries primarily concerned with abstract ledgers (finance), but I have serious doubts about the utility of the technology when applied to problems involving meatspace. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is still deflationary, which makes it unusable as money. Inflationary currencies like USD incentivize people to spend and invest. Deflationary currencies incentivize people to hoard.

Bitcoin is inflationary until the mining period ends, which it hasn’t. You could then still increase the virtual money supply through fractional reserve banking; also “investing” is a lot more like hoarding than it is spending…

So far I don't really know if you can call it inflationary or deflationary because while it's true that the supply keeps increasing the main source of variation for the currency's value is speculation. BTC barely qualifies as a currency today so I don't think we can think in these terms, it's more about what it could end up being if it manages to turn into a proper currency.

>You could then still increase the virtual money supply through fractional reserve banking

You can't do fractional reserve banking on-chain as far as I know so that would mean having your money managed by 3rd party banks who would take ownership of your coins, pool them with other people's coins and manage them for you. So... Back to the start?

Furthermore I don't think it solves the problem of deflation, even with a fractional reserve the bank has no incentive to invest the money if the expected return are less than what it would end up with by not doing anything at all (and therefore not taking any risks either). If you have inflation of, say, 2% then any investment expected to create value or even lose less than 2% is a good one. If you have deflation of 2% then an investment that managed to generate 1% of additional value over your investment actually made you lose money because you'd have been better off not doing anything.

Therefore deflation will make it a lot harder to loan money, fractional reserve or not. Interest rates will be a lot higher to make up for it. The poor will pay the price for being poor, the rich will reap the reward for being rich.

>“investing” is a lot more like hoarding than it is spending…

Depends what you invest into I suppose, if you "invest" in gold bullions then you're right, if you're investing in a startup or loaning money to people buying houses then you're powering the economy.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if someone else gets their hands on supplier X's keys?

I've thought about this some and one way to at least "sort of" map a private key to a single trusted real-world individual/entity is to require it always keep a balance of some "high" amount on it to be considered valid. So three banks start out signing some new "blockchain" ledger with their private keys, each with $100M on it, and they probably are going to be really careful with those keys from then on, and not le…

I think this is the idea behind proof-of-stake. I don't see how it mitigates the fact that while the cryptography may be secure, the humans handling the keys are less so.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup being able to undo transactions is a feature not a bug of the modern financial system. EDIT: it also protects you in cases where someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to make a transaction.

Transactions aren't "undone". In the event of fraudulent charges to your bank account, they simply eat the cost and comp you. As a result, some portion of the fees that you pay to bank are dedicated to these fraudulent charges.

> they simply eat the cost and comp you. As a result, some portion of the fees that you pay to bank are dedicated to these fraudulent charges.

It is important to note that "they" is usually the company that charged the card, not the bank or merchant processor. It is very similar to receiving a refund.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#438
I've never understood why large companies want to get into blockchain. At best, a distributed ledger (blockchain or not), is able to provide a trustworthy database that anyone can engage with. Large banks also provide a trustworthy database, but which only they can edit. With blockchain, the trust is built upon protocols and technology. With banks, the trust is built upon reputation and insurance. They seem in direct competition with each other.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#439
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything where you need to track serial ownership of something. One example of which might be car titles.

In the real world, ownership is more complicated than that, which is why the law is interpreted by judges and not computers. E.g., courts can transfer ownership of your car from you to someone else for a variety of reasons, without your consent. How does this work in a blockchain world? Your answer might be that the State (or the judicial system, I suppose) should have some special private key that lets them sign tra…

Agree there is much hype over blockchain, but there is some advantage in the context you raised.

Currently, if you want to buy or sell real-estate, you have to record that transaction on a central government database. These "databases" used to be paper documents, but are now slowly moving to electronic systems. But they are still centrally controlled, and often even new systems are horribly out-of-date and require specialized real-estate companies to record transactions and pull transaction history, with hefty service fees, often several thousand dollars per sale.

If this real-estate system was based on the blockcahin, it could remove the government as a central source of trust and title companies that specialize in interacting with it would face far more competition. In theory, it could reduce transaction costs to buy and sell real-estate. Admittedly, this may solve some problems but create others, but the benefit is quite clear.

Re: Wall Street rethinks blockchain projects as euphoria meets reality

#440
post #45
post #7

It is interesting that even in an article like this that they still say things like "for all its potential, blockchain is still in its early days." It is sticking with the unfounded assumption that it will be a success in the future, if only it is given more time. In technological terms, it is old. Innumerable efforts have been attempted, yielding almost no fruit. At what point are the fundamental assumptions going t…

I think the fundamental assumption is that "Satoshi invented a useful solution to decentralized consensus". What people don't realize is that Satoshi's solution only works if two assumptions hold true: 1. Mining is decentralized: If mining is centralized than relying on proof-of-work for consensus is waste since the centralized entity controls the blockchain anyway. 2. Consensus rules don't change: If you see the thr…

There is another, more social, assumption he is making: value that is stored on mathematical concepts (e.g., blockchain) is more appealing as value that is stored on more traditional concepts (e.g., reputation, trust).

The social question is the more interesting one. Tech history has suggested that people slowly but surely gravitate to more open systems, but asking folks to hold their life savings in digital currencies that rely on mathamatical promises completly foreign to the average user seems like quite a stretch. It does not exactly help that just about day there is a news article of some new data breach of an online system.

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