Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

news.ycombinator.com

51–60 of 97 posts

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not just talking about "flashing" someone while drunk, we're talking about exposing oneself to a minor, twice. Once may be seen as a "drunk mistake", etc. Twice is a pattern that will make people think twice. Not to mention people generally don't like hiring sex offenders.

Maybe the OP has a drinking problem that he's working on. Who knows? Regardless of the offense, there's no reason to ostracize him from society and employment after he's done his time.

I'm not ostracizing him, just pointing out that exposing yourself to a child is a very serious crime. Found the articles about OP and it pretty well explains why he's having a hard time finding a job. IMO he should just start his own company, because most software companies aren't going to hire a sex offender.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#52
> Half of them are judgmental turn-downs - they won't return my call and never get back to me, because they think poorly of me.

I'm not at all downplaying your difficulties, but it may help to know that many people without felonies on their records endure this same lack of communication from perspective employers. In some cases, it may have nothing to do with the felony.

I hope you find a great job.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#53

> For more background, the felony is from flashing someone (while drunk) who was just under 17 years old. This was the second offense (the other was years ago). They are inexcusable and disgusting offenses, but they are permanently on my background. Just a side note, why are these felonies? Or even crimes to begin with? It’s not like you tried to force yourself on those underage girls or rape them. In Europe, there a…

You don't know the details.

I don't think I can imagine a situation where exposing yourself in public merits 7 months in jail and permanently making it almost impossible to find employment.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#54
so,

My heart goes out to you brother. I can give constructive advice:

1. Set your expectations.

Many things in life now are more challenging for you. You're a second class citizen now. Expending your mental energy hating that, or feeling victimized by it, will paralyze you. Instead, spend that energy identifying your specific challenges and planning how to deal with them.

2. Expect failure and rejection. Use each one to refine your approach.

Rejection is a part of life now, but that's okay. Just like sales is a contact game, so is the job hunt. You may need to make 50x more applications than a non-felon to get serious consideration. That's not fair, but fair doesn't matter. Just make those application, and approach each one as if it matters. Use your network. Write good cover letters. Be ready to sell yourself as someone who is a better hire. Be ready to answer tough questions honestly, and with humility.

3. Recovery from a criminal conviction is a marathon, not a sprint.

While you reach for what you want to happen, you need to be willing to take whatever you can get.

Set realistic goals. Probation is HARD. It's very oppressive, but it's a necessary component of our system. You can't stay free, and improve your life, if you fail at probation. Know your conditions inside and out, better than your PO does. Never make them question your compliance or honesty. Put yourself out, to never put them out.

I wasn't able to get back into programming until I was off probation. What employer wants to be told "If you hire me, federal agents reserve the right to search your office at any time, including copying all the contents of my work computer, and all network attached data too."

4. Lay the groundwork to sell yourself.

You need to have more to offer than a college grad with a CS degree. Find, or refine, your specialty. Be spectacularly good at something specific and specialized. Be prepared to prove that value to an employer. The downtime with no job is terrible. But use it to improve your marketability. Then you can reach out to people who need that specialty. Find others with similar skills on IRC, mailing lists, boards like stackoverflow and HN. Learn to cold contact somebody and say "I see you're into $skillset, I like what you have to say on that. I work with it a lot too. Do you know anybody that's hiring with that need?" Us programmers love to make referrals... most orgs pay a big bounty for bringing in a new hire.

5. Don't give up.

Stay positive, especially when it hurts the most. For your family. For your friends, and the people around you. Don't become one of those guys who has given up, who is always full of victimization and anger. On a long enough timeline, as your trouble move further into the past, you will find more success. Give everybody a chance to treat you like a human being. Sometimes you'll be pleasantly surprised.

My background:

I dealt with a similar situation. I was convicted of a sex offense conspiracy, because some people I was associated with committed some very serious crimes. To get their prison time cut in half, they implicated several others along with them. I had a fantastic career before the 7 years in prison. I also had sensational news coverage. A slow news week, my face was on the 10pm news every day for a week. You can imagine how well that went over at the county jail.

After prison, life was HARD. Those fucking scars, man. Most people will never comprehend what you're going through, and frankly they're never going to care.

I had a similar experience with Goldman Sachs. They contacted me and asked me to interview, because they liked my hackerrank code in a few contests. I aced the phone screen. They basically demanded I fly to meet them right away. Two days later, I got a form rejection letter in E-Mail, as if I had submitted an application but was being declined for an interview.

After probation, I started seeking remote work nationally. I applied to everything I qualified for on the HN Who's Hiring posts. It took me about 3 months to find a job. Now I work as a full-time contractor for a small firm, with zero benefits, for acceptable pay. They never asked about criminal history, so we never had that conversation. I like to pretend they wouldn't fire me, but we both know how that goes. I'm hoping this can lead to full-time employment, or at least strengthen my future employment prospects. But the work is really fun, and the people are great too.

I still live poor. I drive a 22yr old car. I carry a shitty old phone. All my furniture came from goodwill for $20. I save every dollar, because I need to be prepared for the hard times. I can't pretend hard times aren't coming again, but I'm going to be ready. I'll greet them with a smile, like an old friend.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that I would need references (I have none), a good portfolio (I have none), or the ability to start off making almost no money (my family would starve).

You're just like every other entry level developer in the industry then. The only thing that is setting you apart is the conviction. Yes it will be harder, but with the items you just specified, everyone else is dealing with too. Get a portfolio (make one), get references (find some), and don't let your family starve. Take any job you can to make money while always looking for that better one, working on the referenc…

I fully concur. Find your first reference today(mayhaps, someone from your parish).

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#56

> For more background, the felony is from flashing someone (while drunk) who was just under 17 years old. This was the second offense (the other was years ago). They are inexcusable and disgusting offenses, but they are permanently on my background. Just a side note, why are these felonies? Or even crimes to begin with? It’s not like you tried to force yourself on those underage girls or rape them. In Europe, there a…

The USA has a pretty complicated relationship with sexuality.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#57
post #35

I would try leaving the country. In fact, it would have been preferable to do so before the conviction.

The guy has a wife & five children, you don't move 'just like that' and having a felony conviction on your record means there are lots of doors that close, depending on where you live you might not even get a passport anymore.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#58

Some ideas for you, take anything you like: * Check out the porn industry. They are always pushing boundaries of what is possible with tech and felons frequently work in the industry. * Military service is a "customary shortcut to public affirmation". It may be possible to enlist in some branch somewhere and request a waiver for your felony. * Improve your portfolio. If you are a good enough developer, people will ov…

Military service is a "customary shortcut to public affirmation". It may be possible to enlist in some branch somewhere and request a waiver for your felony.

My ex was career army and did a stint as a military recruiter. At that time, you could not join if you already had more than 2 children. OP states he has a wife and 5 kids. There are also age limits and other automatic bars.

All such details vary from one service to another. IIRC, you cannot join the army infantry with flat feet, but the navy has no problem with this.

If the OP (or anyone) is interested in the military option, they should do a quick Google or make a few phone calls to the nearest recruiting office to check on such details. I would hate to see them waste a whole lot of time on something only to learn it is a dead end for them.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#59

Im going to give you some either great advice or bad advice - only time will tell. First of all take ANY job you can get - this means starbucks is on the table - Get back to work, even part time. Second if you have skills then start putting them to use - open source, build your own thing what ever. At least 2-3 hours a day of WORK. Google up non profits that help fellons find jobs and ask them if they can use your se…

I agree with 99% of this. I don't think there's any value in publicly naming the companies that have rejected you, and there is a potential that it would be detrimental (how would a potential employer view that?). I just don't think the risk (however slight) outweighs the (practically nonexistent) reward.

Your dead wrong.

For years there was "no value" in discussing salary... but companies were allowed to ask you "how much did you make at your last job".

So we have/had a system that is "pro company" and "anti-worker" that took a LONG time to change and let a lot of things that we probably always would have been upset about go on.

There is value in publicly naming the company that didn't hire him. It stops someone else in his position from wasting their time. The only entity that benefits from him NOT disclosing the policy is the hiring company.

It "might" make a company look bad if it got out that they DO or DONT hire people who were once criminals - and then we get into a larger set of questions.

Is their policy a stealth racial bias? Is the purpose of the justice system to lock people up and then create social shunning or reform?

This is another case where tradition and the status quo does not make sense.

Re: Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?

#60

My best advice on where to find work is look for smaller companies or for remote work with foreign companies. Small startups and the like often don't have the ability or the time to run background checks. It's not worth it for them. And many countries outside the US have laws against discriminating against people with criminal history. For example if you look for remote job for a Canadian company you'd probably have…

Oh, also I should mention, my crime was in 4 major local newspapers, and those online news articles are the first 4 results of googling my name. So it's not really something I can hide, at all.

Most people don't check past the first page of results. If you can establish a robust online presence for your name, that may move those results down in the listings.

I am not advocating that you lie, deceive or hide anything. I am suggesting you establish a positive internet presence so that ugly stuff is not the only information available about you.

Vanessa Williams lost her Miss America crown to scandal over nude photos. The entire world knows that. That information never went away, yet she was eventually deemed respectable enough to do work on music for a Disney film, Pocahontas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colors_of_the_Wind

I don't know if this is your only handle on HN or if it is a sock puppet used for talking about controversial issues, but I will suggest you abandon it after you are done responding to this discussion and establish a positive presence on the site. The fact that you have a history of arguing about sexual subjects under the handle of sexoffender looks really messed up.

It's possible that is just you being naive and dumb, but it makes me wonder what other stuff you may be doing that may be making employers think that hiring you is just a scandal waiting to happen.

Because I recognized your handle due to this bizarre choice you have made to talk about sexual subjects and parenting choices under this handle. I recall wanting to debate you and choosing to refrain because I felt like no good would come of it.

So I think you need to take a long, hard look at some of the social signalling you are doing. I will suggest therapy and journaling to sort out some of your sexual issues.

Please note, that is intended as kind and supportive. I spent plenty of time in therapy for my own sexual issues. I'm not trying to be ugly here.

Post reply on HN