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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

talent.works

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#291

Post by Double_a_92 »

whostolemyhat wrote: post #284
briandear wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calm down. You are part of the problem. You piss off otherwise inclusive and reasonable people with such nonsense. JourneyMAN doesn’t mean an actual “man.” That is an archaic interpretation to suggest a journeyman means “man.” We don’t call “fishermen” “fisherpersons” — that’s just silly. You can have female fisherman.

Cool, so you'd have no problem if the title everyone had to use was journeywoman? You could have male journeywoman, so there'd be no problem there.

If it had a historical background and was a common word in everyday language, I guess not.

If however you would just call it like that to make it female on purpose and out of defiance... Then I guess I wouldn't accept it.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#292

Post by salawat »

whostolemyhat wrote: post #284
briandear wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calm down. You are part of the problem. You piss off otherwise inclusive and reasonable people with such nonsense. JourneyMAN doesn’t mean an actual “man.” That is an archaic interpretation to suggest a journeyman means “man.” We don’t call “fishermen” “fisherpersons” — that’s just silly. You can have female fisherman.

Cool, so you'd have no problem if the title everyone had to use was journeywoman? You could have male journeywoman, so there'd be no problem there.

Just stop, please.

The point of journeyman in connection to a trade is as a point on a scale of relative skill and has no meaning in the place of determing the accidental characteristics of the wielder of the title EXCEPT relative competency in the trade.

"Man" has been a catch all for human practitioner when who the practitioner is isn't essential to the context.

The title of journeyman elevates whomever bears it in the eyes of a trade. It grants equivalence no matter whom it is applied to. If you wish to call yourself a journeywoman, do so. Don't be surprised when the rest of the trade still refers to you as a journeyman. Tools don't care who wields them. And finished works' quality depends only on skill. Not gender.

Hate to see of what your views on Bachelor's Degrees are.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#293

Post by Double_a_92 »

openIce wrote: post #225
bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. And yeah, I have a job in software development.

> recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week

Be aware that most of those are basically a scam. Trying to force you into some random job just so they can get the provision.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#294

Post by gcatalfamo »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #287
gcatalfamo wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journeyperson? Next we’re gonna call mom and dad “parent and parent”

I mean, why not call my parent my parent instead of my mom or dad if my mom or dad don’t identify as cis? “This is my parent, Alex” is reasonable.

I'd rather have two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad...give people a name, a role, and not live in such emotionless and unlabelled society.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#295

Post by amorphid »

usernam wrote: post #204
amorphid wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a recruiter for 8 years, and maybe 1 in 100 applications turned into a hire. I suspect a big factor is the barrier to entry for applying has been lowered. Just fill out a quick form and click submit, so people will apply to any job that looks remotely relevant. An increase in applications makes sifting through those applications increasingly burdensome, and tools have not really made mentally parsing a resume e…

The barrier is lower for applying, but as many other posters saying, there is simply just interest in quick ROI and zero willingness to think long term. I recruited for several years for my companies too. First thing I noticed, there is huge variability in CV for each country. When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. On the…

>> When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors.

Be careful about going there. Discrimination is illegal & unnecessary.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#296

Post by protonimitate »

justherefortart wrote: post #286
ry_ry wrote: post #280

Phone post, so may be a little disjointed... Until very recently I was frontend lead for a fairly large UK site, and one of the best hires I ever made was a 32 year old former-recruiter with no commercial programming experience, and no CS background. However it was far from plain sailing. We had mutual friends and whilst chatting in a pub, and they won me over with their passion and enthusiasm for what I discovered w…

There's a huge difference in no work experience and no experience at all. Hiring college grads without a lot of real world experience gives you the opportunity to mentor and train in good methodologies that I find older developers will refuse to implement without incessant fighting. It is more work initially but the long run payoff has been fantastic in my experience. When you manage based on yearly expectations that…

I'm curious to hear what kinds of skill gaps you see and the severity of issues they bring, and if there are common knowledge gaps or it's more random.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#297

Post by jaclaz »

What I often cite (for fun):

https://tudorbarbu.ninja/message-to-recruiters/

most notably "This is how most job ads sound nowadays:":

We’re looking for a person with more than 100 years of experience in software development, coding everything from BIOSes to cloud applications, knowledge of all past, present and future operating systems and setting up secure networks. The applicant must also be able to juggle up to twenty balls and read hieroglyphs, be fluent in Swahili and dance like Michael Jackson (especially moonwalking – nice to have at corporate Christmas parties).

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#298

Post by tudelo »

openIce wrote: post #225
bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. And yeah, I have a job in software development.

Well, he was saying when he has too many applicants. Either he picks a few and gives none of the others a fair chance, or he gives everyone a fair chance with something some people don't like. Our time on this planet is finite, what do you expect of him?

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#299

Post by amorphid »

meesterdude wrote: post #193
bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

FWIW when i apply to a job and get sent back a coding exercise, without first even talking to me, that's usually a red flag for me and i do not proceed with them - although I do communicate that I prefer to have some kind of chat so i know there is a culture fit, before i potentially throw hours of my life away.

I also kind of agree. If I do something for you, it's nice if you do something for me. So if I put work in to thoughtfully apply, I'm kind of expecting you to do more work than flinging a coding exercise at me. As a recruiter, I saw companies spam every candidate with a coding exercise only to never review many applications w/ completed exercises.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#300

Post by amorphid »

tudelo wrote: post #298
openIce wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVEN AS A COLLEGE STUDENT I'm not going to do your coding assessment for free. There are plenty of workplaces that skip such bullshit and instead they talk with people and take a quick look at Github/past experience. I have more important things to do and recruiters keep emailing me about interviews every week. And yeah, I have a job in software development.

Well, he was saying when he has too many applicants. Either he picks a few and gives none of the others a fair chance, or he gives everyone a fair chance with something some people don't like. Our time on this planet is finite, what do you expect of him?

>> Our time on this planet is finite, what do you expect of him?

Better.

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