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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#261

Post by EnderMB »

PeterStuer wrote: post #223

Over here the labels are 'junior', 'medior' and 'senior'. They are primarily used as a pay-scale indicator. It's not that recruiters are dumb and looking for fresh graduates with 3 years of industrial work experience, it is that they are looking for people with 3 years of experience that will accept working in the 'junior' pay-scale knowing that it will be 2-3 years before they move up to the 'medior' payscale. Many/…

In the UK, I've noticed more companies moving to Entry -> Junior -> Mid-level -> Senior.

To me, this makes sense, as it allows easier access for people re-training or coming in outside of school without a degree. Graduates come into junior roles due to their degree, whereas school leavers or those that have re-trained spend some time as an entry-level developer.

I've worked with a few entry-level developers, and they've worked their way up through companies to land senior-level roles in a few years. Sure, it took them a bit longer than a university graduate, but there was a route into the industry for them. It was a bog-standard job (agency dev for clients) but when opportunities are few and far between it's a great way to get passionate people in.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#262

Post by andai »

gcatalfamo wrote: post #220
bweitzman wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.

Journeyperson? Next we’re gonna call mom and dad “parent and parent”

Mom and dad? Did you just assume my upbringing?

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#263

Post by golergka »

usernam wrote: post #204
amorphid wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a recruiter for 8 years, and maybe 1 in 100 applications turned into a hire. I suspect a big factor is the barrier to entry for applying has been lowered. Just fill out a quick form and click submit, so people will apply to any job that looks remotely relevant. An increase in applications makes sifting through those applications increasingly burdensome, and tools have not really made mentally parsing a resume e…

The barrier is lower for applying, but as many other posters saying, there is simply just interest in quick ROI and zero willingness to think long term. I recruited for several years for my companies too. First thing I noticed, there is huge variability in CV for each country. When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. On the…

Can you share your opinion about other countries as well? It's an interesting statistic which I, suspect, not many would be willing to discuss publicly and non-anonymously.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#264

Post by joopxiv »

dotcoma wrote: post #3

Do we need more evidence that "Entry-Level" means "poorly paid"?

I have a competing hypothesis. It seems to me that a lot of people writing the vacancies have too big of an ego to acknowledge the fact that someone without work experience can do the job they've been doing for years (and maybe still are). The seem to have forgotten that they also started without any experience.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#265

Post by IncRnd »

AstralStorm wrote: post #251
IncRnd wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be able to convince an employer that your experience is valid, that you can work on their critical code base without destroying their customer base and income stream. If you can't demonstrate your experience through results that you've achieved, that's the same as having zero years of python experience.

Sure. Demonstrate experience how? Link them to patches accepted by open source projects? IRC conversations and emails? :) (now harder with all that slack thing) See people tend not to put patches on GitHub. (Some fork repos butit is harder for the recruiter to figure out the thing.) And there are only so many projects that are valuable at all. If you're expected to work on yet another worthless project (TM) then the…

> Sure. Demonstrate experience how?

That's the point. If a candidate can't concisely state how they solved a problem or the effect of their having done so, then they likely didn't solve a problem in the first place.

The barrier to entry represented by using Github is incredibly low, so that isn't a differentiator between people in most cases. What was _accomplished_ by all those pull requests and managed repositories?

> Link them to patches accepted by open source projects? IRC conversations and emails? :) (now harder with all that slack thing)

In many cases, those are just about the least worthwhile thing you can do to convince a potential employer. Employers are busy, almost always busier than the candidates who are looking for a job. Make things easier for the employer, not harder.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#266

Post by mieseratte »

IncRnd wrote: post #265
AstralStorm wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Demonstrate experience how? Link them to patches accepted by open source projects? IRC conversations and emails? :) (now harder with all that slack thing) See people tend not to put patches on GitHub. (Some fork repos butit is harder for the recruiter to figure out the thing.) And there are only so many projects that are valuable at all. If you're expected to work on yet another worthless project (TM) then the…

> Sure. Demonstrate experience how? That's the point. If a candidate can't concisely state how they solved a problem or the effect of their having done so, then they likely didn't solve a problem in the first place. The barrier to entry represented by using Github is incredibly low, so that isn't a differentiator between people in most cases. What was _accomplished_ by all those pull requests and managed repositories…

> The barrier to entry represented by using Github is incredibly low

Related to this, I hate how merely opening an issue is shown as a contribution on the offending user's profile.

Some script-kiddie who can't bother to read opens an issue with a "Gimme teh codez" beg, and now it shows that they "contributed" to my project That's not a contribution, that's the damn opposite! I've had my time wasted!

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#268

Post by hysan »

mlnj wrote: post #208
hysan wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently (few weeks ago) saw a job that required 3+ years professional experience building React Native apps. Announced in early 2015...

Maybe they are looking for the select few who developed it.

The salary was high, but certainly less than what I imagine a senior dev at Facebook earns and probably far far less than what one of the original core React Native devs earn. So maybe, but unlikely.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#269

Post by tremon »

gaustin wrote: post #171
stevenwoo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get hired for email archival? Started looking at online applications and every single one has something like "Why do you want to work for us?" and yesterday I saw "How do you add to our diversity?"

What's the problem with those questions?

The latter is not a question the applicant is qualified to answer. Specifically, "how do you add to " can only be answered by someone that already knows the team. To me it signals that the recruiter is lazy and expects me, as applicant, to do his job for him.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#270

Post by drk4 »

shawn-furyan wrote: post #148

What you think this does: filter out inexperienced people What this actually does: bias you toward hiring people who are comfortable lying

This is the tragedy of it. They are trying so hard to only get the "best of the best" that the only way you can possibly be interested in that position and quality for it is by lying.
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