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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#201
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.

AFAICS, the only one that's explicitly gendered is "journeyman". We've had a pretty good track record swapping out "person" in such situations when it's an issue. One might take issue with "master", and some senses of "master" are gendered, but some are not, such as senses 1c (particularly applicable here) and 1d: > "c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices (see 1apprentice 1b)" > "d (1) : an artist, pe…

The word caries with it a history of a workforce dominated by men.

If there's going to be a new made up system for standardizing and measuring the proficiency of software developers, then we may as well make up new words too that don't have this baggage.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#202

The buried lede here seems to be "In real life, folks need to apply to 150-250 jobs to get a job". I'd be so, so interested to see the breakdown here, and what causes these types of numbers. Are there just enormous numbers of applicants for every job? Are people applying for jobs they aren't qualified for? How does this compare in tech vs the rest of the job market? The signal/noise ratio must be absurdly low if this…

I was a recruiter for 8 years, and maybe 1 in 100 applications turned into a hire. I suspect a big factor is the barrier to entry for applying has been lowered. Just fill out a quick form and click submit, so people will apply to any job that looks remotely relevant. An increase in applications makes sifting through those applications increasingly burdensome, and tools have not really made mentally parsing a resume e…

There seems to be a pretty simple solution to this - you blacklist the obviously unacceptable.

Not the ones you 'don't like' - the ones that don't even make sense.

That process of filtering out folks using the blacklist should be automated and the blacklist should be public.

I wonder if that'd make recruiting jobs almost pointless in a large number of cases however. It sure would make one think twice about spam-applying, knowing you might get blacklisted for spam.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is the titles themselves... "Senior" implies "Highly Experienced" meaning "lots of years of experience". Whereas it's completely possible for a person with 3-4 years of experience to be a "Very Good Engineer" within their specific domain and be as valuable, respected, listened-to, etc. as a "Senior Engineer". It doesn't happen often, but it happens. If we had titles more like "Apprentice",…

Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.

Do you have better suggestions?

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#204

The buried lede here seems to be "In real life, folks need to apply to 150-250 jobs to get a job". I'd be so, so interested to see the breakdown here, and what causes these types of numbers. Are there just enormous numbers of applicants for every job? Are people applying for jobs they aren't qualified for? How does this compare in tech vs the rest of the job market? The signal/noise ratio must be absurdly low if this…

I was a recruiter for 8 years, and maybe 1 in 100 applications turned into a hire. I suspect a big factor is the barrier to entry for applying has been lowered. Just fill out a quick form and click submit, so people will apply to any job that looks remotely relevant. An increase in applications makes sifting through those applications increasingly burdensome, and tools have not really made mentally parsing a resume e…

The barrier is lower for applying, but as many other posters saying, there is simply just interest in quick ROI and zero willingness to think long term.

I recruited for several years for my companies too. First thing I noticed, there is huge variability in CV for each country. When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. On the other end, I could put my hand on coal if the same CV was written by most germans. Which is bad, because the CV or cover letter become essentially useless as a metric.

To reduce the number of applications we introduced simple tests to submit along with the CV. It does wonders, but I personally hate it. As a senior dev, I keep asking: would I apply to my current application? I have to answer that no, I wouldn't. I have plenty of public projects to investigate my abilities if needed, and I do expect some minimal amount in investment from both parties when hiring.

We also raised the requirements from applicants ridiculously, essentially expecting them to work on core features from tomorrow. Again, completely unrealistic. And again, by our own wording, I would be afraid to apply. We are definitely selecting over-confident candidates (or desperate).

And it's sadly also true that the industry has no apprentice jobs anymore, although there is plenty of need. There are some career paths where I would jump ships despite my lack of expertise to follow my interests. Starting from zero doesn't stop me, but there are simply no opportunities: junior jobs are not really junior anymore. They are simply paid less.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Yes. Any job with entry level requirements will get 20-100 applications on craigslist in seattle (my experience). More or less applications on more or less popular platforms 2) Yes. Half or more of the applications I've reviewed are totally unqualified. Either they ignored the requirements or fudge it and flop on the interview. 3) Tech has even more noise than my personal experience due to higher pay scales and in…

> 2) Yes. Half or more of the applications I've reviewed are totally unqualified. Either they ignored the requirements or fudge it and flop on the interview. I mean if you are calling something "entry level position" and have "requires 3 years experience in the field", I'd expect people to apply anyway. I remember when I was fresh out of college all the entry positions I saw required several years of experience. If y…

>when I was fresh out of college all the entry positions I saw required several years of experience

Same. That struck me as particularly BS'y. I asked career counselors at my school about that and they said to "embellish" my background a bit, but not to lie. The specific advice I got was if you worked as a developer on a short term project a year ago that would count as a year of work. If asked about it the advice was to just explain what you really meant. It made me feel uneasy because if seemed disingenuous, but I went with it because I needed a job.

This made me really question what does a "year of experience" really mean? 60 Hrs/wk for a year is not the same as 20 Hrs/wk for a year. If you could use a month of work a year ago as a year of experience, what else could you stretch? At that point you could question what does anything really mean on an application? If it has super high qualifications, how could you take it seriously? You can just rationalize away anything! Can't you? 4+ years of experience? I basically got that. 2+ years in some specific programming language? How different could it be from C++? I got the basic concepts down, I can figure out the rest, just give me money!

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take and the worst you will hear is the word 'no'. You need a job to pay off the loans you needed to get the degree to apply to the jobs in the first place. If experience inflation is a reaction to an insurmountable volume of applications then what businesses are really doing is filtering out the honest people.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#206
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've similarly always struggled to make sense of these kinds of claims, because in my life so far I was offered a job every time I applied, so I'm wondering if I'm either living in an area where the job market is much less competitive or if I'm aiming too low. It's out of the question that I'm some kind of hotshot, on the contrary my CV is a mess and I dropped out ouf college.

Jesus! That's really awesome! I'm at ~700 jobs and only had 1 offer that was pretty bad. (Optics and/or Bio-tech)

...surely you didn't mean 700 jobs?

70 jobs? 700 applications? Or am I completely mistaken and you are a much more well-traveled person than I am?

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#207
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passion: strong and barely controllable emotion. "sufficiently non-loathsome...motivate yourself to do it" is a far cry from passionate. Tangentially related @sarahmei on twitter wrote a thread about passion in tech. IMO she nails it: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/921366047122268165

I am not sure this lady knows what it means to be passionate then. Dismissing passion as the domain of stuffy white men is to dismissing anyone with an overridingly strong interest in anything

you missed the point bud. she wasn't saying capital p passion is only for privileged folks, she's saying the attitude of expecting passion as a prereq for programming is

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#208
post #150

The best I saw on LinkedIn was "3 years of experience required in TensorFlow". Released in late 2015...

Recently (few weeks ago) saw a job that required 3+ years professional experience building React Native apps. Announced in early 2015...

Maybe they are looking for the select few who developed it.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#209
post #172

It seems to me the whole problem amounts to companies deciding to redefine the word "entry", then acting all disappointed when no one else uses that definition. "Entry" means "to enter the workforce". It means you have pre-work experience such as a specific degree, speak a certain language, etc. If you advertise an "entry level web development" job and I just boot camped for that, I am qualified and will apply. If yo…

Entry Level ought to be 'willing to train', Junior, some experience, Senior, 8+ years of experience. Sadly title inflation is also a thing.

I have seen senior engineers with 1.5 years of experience and totally confident (in startup).

And my lifelong experience is that such pepole have pretty good careers, better then humble more self aware people.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#210
post #6

"Require"? The fact that something is written in job description as a "requirement" doesn't mean that you won't get hired without it. I think that most jobs I got as a self taught engineer had a degree as a requirement – and it was almost never even mentioned in an interview.

companies who are federal contractors are required to hold the requirements bar, or get very angry auditors/federal investigators on their tail.

something I learned at an HR training. So that is useful to prune your search.

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