Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 62 posts

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#51

Post by bb88 »

pinewurst wrote: post #4

It's already happened implicitly with the rise & spread of the "technical interview". By rote memorization of a body of knowledge which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand. Given the interchange between employers, these are more alike than different. Why would further formalization be any more valuable than say the Interior Decorator exam and license in Florida?

> Why would further formalization be any more valuable than say the Interior Decorator exam and license in Florida?

Why do you assume that programming is more like Interior Decorators than not more like Civil Engineering? There's been a number of cases in our history where software has killed people or cost people/corporations millions of dollars.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#52

Post by bb88 »

cornholio wrote: post #8
tylercubell wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software that could kill. Medical, aerospace, driverless?

Mission critical software is created by processes, not individuals - unlike, say, surgery or legal counsel, that are delivered in person. A single programmer shouldn't be able to kill using his keyboard, and if he can, something is very wrong with the way that mission critical software is produced. To maintain the analogy, if a law firm is using the services of paralegals that haven't passed the bar exam or have no f…

> Mission critical software is created by processes, not individuals.

I worked on software for the military, which was under a process (heavily regimented, I might add), and yet US soldiers still died when the software failed. It wasn't one person with a keyboard, it was a group decision and politics that allowed it to happen.

Processes in the end are still run by people. Sometimes people do the thing they think is right, yet end up with a result which is very very wrong.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#55

Post by bb88 »

stale2002 wrote: post #12
tylercubell wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software that could kill. Medical, aerospace, driverless?

That is a small subset of software. The vast majority of software written today has precisely 0 ability to kill anyone. Even IF you are working at a company doing one of those things, only a subset of engineers that are working there are going to working on the "core" part of the software. Those companies have lots of web developers making code that isn't dangerous as well. To put it another way, reading and writing…

> The vast majority of software written today has precisely 0 ability to kill anyone.

There's lots of ways software can cost corporations money if it fails to operate. The recent failures at Delta, Southwest, United, all come to mind. The IT industry has a myriad of certifications to, say, prevent some tech-idiot from touching the routing table on the routers.

The ISO has standards for software engineering (similar to ISO9001 for hardware) but so far the market does not feel that standard provides a competitive advantage. If I could guarantee my processes gave you 99.9999% uptime with our software, would you prefer that or another company that can iterate faster?

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#56

Post by sfifs »

Fundamentally demand supply mismatch.

These exams succeed in professions where more people are looking to enter the profession than there are jobs that will afford a comfortable lifestyle.. so the existing professionals lobby the government to setup a guild like body to "certify" and thereby limit supply of "certified professionals". The point of the exam is to limit supply and competition, it is not to ensure lawyers, accountants etc "know enough" - look at how many clients are done in by poor professional advice.

There are far far more programming jobs than people available who can program today. So this won't happen.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#57

Post by slipwalker »

i find it much more valid each company running it's own technical interviewing process. Adapted to the specific knowledge ( and social skills ) required by the job at hand.

personally i like joel spolsky's model: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guid...

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#58

Post by AstralStorm »

garyfirestorm wrote: post #36

What prevents a general exam? - Attitude Unlike other fields, Engineering in general and software in particular are all about freedom. You can hack your car, hack your phone, WiFi etc without needing a certificate from someone. You're challenging this freedom and hacker attitude by imposing exams and creating a system that gives people 'permission' to write software (work in this field) This will never fly. And I hop…

Yes, just like Electrical Engineer exams killed hobby electronics. /s

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#59

Post by AstralStorm »

wai1234 wrote: post #43

There seems to be a belief that such an exam would produce uniformly high caliber practitioners. There are plenty of lousy members of every regulated profession. The exams in regulated professions are designed to test that you know the jargon and general knowledge of the field (anatomy and physiology, case law, etc,). The day-to-day application of that knowledge is usually consistent with that knowledge. Outstanding…

Indeed. There could be a data safety cert too. (Data protection and data processing ethics, more and more important nowadays.)

Specific technologies? Not applicable really.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#60

Post by AstralStorm »

bb88 wrote: post #52
cornholio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mission critical software is created by processes, not individuals - unlike, say, surgery or legal counsel, that are delivered in person. A single programmer shouldn't be able to kill using his keyboard, and if he can, something is very wrong with the way that mission critical software is produced. To maintain the analogy, if a law firm is using the services of paralegals that haven't passed the bar exam or have no f…

> Mission critical software is created by processes, not individuals. I worked on software for the military, which was under a process (heavily regimented, I might add), and yet US soldiers still died when the software failed. It wasn't one person with a keyboard, it was a group decision and politics that allowed it to happen. Processes in the end are still run by people. Sometimes people do the thing they think is r…

Adding certification to the mix won't fix the faulty process at all though.
Post reply on HN