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GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

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Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#131

Post by nkkollaw »

prokoudine wrote: post #122
nkkollaw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did and will keep getting downvoted (like my comment below about GIMP's usability will), but you're absolutely right. This is another case where developers decide what's cool, and of course pick features that are cool to them, not their users. Not once in my life would I ever think I'm missing that feature in GIMP.

The feature was developed to help identifying bottlenecks in how GIMP uses cache. It was added to make GIMP faster. Do you want GIMP to be slower?

Kind of a contorted way of seeing this, but I'll go for it.

So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question.

Since you're implying that by not thinking the performance indicator is an important feature for the average user I want GIMP to be slower, yes--actually I would definitely opt for a slower, usable program than a fast unusable one, and I never thought speed was a problem of GIMP.

Right now I'm running Wine to be able to edit this PSD file without going crazy trying to use GIMP's interface, so obviously speed is not what I care about. I'm sure I'm not the only one, since other problems and not speed seem to be stopping people from using GIMP as their image editor.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#132

Post by nkkollaw »

prokoudine wrote: post #126
fvdessen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you genuinely think that the GIMP developers don't want or don't try to make it usable or to improve it as much as they can? Ten years ago they made a call to artists to find out what they could improve, then didn't like the feedback they got and told the artists they were wrong. I guess that's how they got such a user hostile reputation.

"Ten years ago they made a call to artists to find out what they could improve, then didn't like the feedback they got and told the artists they were wrong." You won't be able to prove this claim, because you made that up :)

Can you prove he made that up..?

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#133

Post by nkkollaw »

prokoudine wrote: post #128
nkkollaw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm intrigued by this. Do you genuinely think that the GIMP developers don't want or don't try to make it usable or to improve it as much as they can Yes. They focus on features _they_ care about, not what users care about. The features announced in this release are good proof of that, but if you look in a comment below there's a first-hand experience of how GIMP's developers are annoyed by usability and the fact t…

"Yes. They focus on features _they_ care about, not what users care about. The features announced in this release are good proof of that" I feel almost sorry about wasting my time replying you, because you can't even read the first two paragraphs in the release notes. 2.10 rc1 is not about new fancy features, it's about fixing a shit ton of bugs and adding stuff that improves reporting bugs and making GIMP more stabl…

> I feel almost sorry about wasting my time replying you, because you can't even read the first two paragraphs in the release notes.

That's not very nice, uh? I don't think I offended anyone here.

However, I don't have to wrap my head around anything, because my point is that I don't think GIMP's developer's priority are in line with its users. I have hardly seen anyone complain about GIMP's bugs and stability problems (actually on that front it's been working great since I remember), and lots of people installing Wine because they can't figure out the interface.

> "but if you look in a comment below there's a first-hand experience of how GIMP's developers are annoyed by usability and the fact that users would want a more usable software." It looks made up :)

Since you've gone around the thread saying everything people post is a lie, can you actually state facts since you love facts so much? Can you link to a conversation the devs had about usability, where they were saying that it's important to them, their users, and a priority for the project?

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#134

Post by prokoudine »

nkkollaw wrote: post #131
prokoudine wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feature was developed to help identifying bottlenecks in how GIMP uses cache. It was added to make GIMP faster. Do you want GIMP to be slower?

Kind of a contorted way of seeing this, but I'll go for it. So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Since you're implying that by not thinking the performance indicator is an important feature for the average user I want GIMP to be slower, yes--actually I would definitely opt for a slower, usable program than a fast unusable one, and I never thought speed was a problem of…

> So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question.

Please do pay attention. The release notes specifically describe who did that and for what purpose, and what's in it for end-users. It's all there for you to read. Just please pay attention.

> and I never thought speed was a problem of GIMP

Which suggests that you never used such a basic feature as Gaussian blur in both Photoshop and GIMP.

GIMP _is_ slower than it should be. It actually _is_ a problem for people with modern DSLRs. We want to fix that problem.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#135

Post by prokoudine »

nkkollaw wrote: post #132
prokoudine wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ten years ago they made a call to artists to find out what they could improve, then didn't like the feedback they got and told the artists they were wrong." You won't be able to prove this claim, because you made that up :)

Can you prove he made that up..?

Of course I can. We did two rounds of interviews with pro users, all done by UX/UI experts. Who then wrote a number of functional specs (see gui.gimp.org). We implemented all specs that were completed, some specs weren't completed, unfortunately, and there's always more work to do in that regard.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#136

Post by zzzcpan »

prokoudine wrote: post #134
nkkollaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of a contorted way of seeing this, but I'll go for it. So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Since you're implying that by not thinking the performance indicator is an important feature for the average user I want GIMP to be slower, yes--actually I would definitely opt for a slower, usable program than a fast unusable one, and I never thought speed was a problem of…

> So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Please do pay attention. The release notes specifically describe who did that and for what purpose, and what's in it for end-users. It's all there for you to read. Just please pay attention. > and I never thought speed was a problem of GIMP Which suggests that you never used such a basic feature as Gaussian blur in both Photoshop…

Exactly. As someone who did use Photoshop professionally for years, I got used to Gimp's quirks in like a few days, but hit the performance wall right after that. Pretty much nothing I did in Photoshop is possible in Gimp due to performance issues.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#137

Post by prokoudine »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #105
lovelearning wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread seems to be full of people making baseless assumptions about GIMP that I don't see the GIMP devs themselves make or any open source enthusiast make. Who here is claiming GIMP is a serious competitor to Photoshop, or even a competitor at all? Even the GIMP team doesn't ( https://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-dev... ). Or that GIMP is targeting graphics professionals or graphics industry?…

To pretend that any of the things said about GIMP in this thread are "baseless" are to stick your head in the sand.

Fair enough. _Most_ things said about GIMP in this thread are complete and utter made-up bullshit that won't stand fact-checking. How about that? Better? :)

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#138

Post by nkkollaw »

prokoudine wrote: post #134
nkkollaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of a contorted way of seeing this, but I'll go for it. So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Since you're implying that by not thinking the performance indicator is an important feature for the average user I want GIMP to be slower, yes--actually I would definitely opt for a slower, usable program than a fast unusable one, and I never thought speed was a problem of…

> So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Please do pay attention. The release notes specifically describe who did that and for what purpose, and what's in it for end-users. It's all there for you to read. Just please pay attention. > and I never thought speed was a problem of GIMP Which suggests that you never used such a basic feature as Gaussian blur in both Photoshop…

Are _you_ paying attention (your tone is absolutely horrible, by the way)? I'm saying that I doubt the project's priorities are in line with those of its users.

Are you sure that performance is a problem for most users? I have talked to people about GIMP before, and it came out 0 times, while usability was the problem that forced most people to install Photoshop or go back to Windows.

In the past 3 days, I've opened pretty big illustrations (about 20,000px* 8000px) on a i35 thinker (mobile phone processor), and I had absolutely no problem opening them, scrolling around, etc.

Doing basic operations like moving, cropping, and resizing layers was so cumbersome that after 3 days I gave up and installed Photoshop 7.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#139

Post by prokoudine »

nkkollaw wrote: post #133
prokoudine wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes. They focus on features _they_ care about, not what users care about. The features announced in this release are good proof of that" I feel almost sorry about wasting my time replying you, because you can't even read the first two paragraphs in the release notes. 2.10 rc1 is not about new fancy features, it's about fixing a shit ton of bugs and adding stuff that improves reporting bugs and making GIMP more stabl…

> I feel almost sorry about wasting my time replying you, because you can't even read the first two paragraphs in the release notes. That's not very nice, uh? I don't think I offended anyone here. However, I don't have to wrap my head around anything, because my point is that I don't think GIMP's developer's priority are in line with its users. I have hardly seen anyone complain about GIMP's bugs and stability proble…

> However, I don't have to wrap my head around anything, because my point is that I don't think GIMP's developer's priority are in line with its users.

Let's see.

Did users ask for 16-/32-bit per channel editing? Yes. Done in 2.10.

Did users ask for a tool that would combine rotation, scaling etc.? By gods, they did! Done in 2.10.

Did users ask for canvas rotation/flipping? My, didn't they just! Done in 2.10.

Did users complain about unusable iWarp filter? Oh yes! Fixed in 2.10, with a new tool that works directly on the canvas.

I can go on like that forever. At least half of https://wiki.gimp.org/wiki/Release:2.10_changelog was implemented from bug reports, and that list isn't even entirely up-to-date, partly because I'm a lazy ass, and partly because I keep stumbling on people like you and can't fight the urge to reply.

> Since you've gone around the thread saying everything people post is a lie, can you actually state facts since you love facts so much? Can you link to a conversation the devs had about usability, where they were saying that it's important to them, their users, and a priority for the project?

I can point you to a whole website we created to handle UI problems and a whole mailing list for the same purpose.

I can point you to specs there that were implemented.

If I manage to find old mailing lists archives, I can even point you to a post by a former lead dev who literally said that GIMP's usability sucks and then implemented single-window mode (much requested by users whose interests we ignore as you seem to believe).

Good enough?

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#140

Post by prokoudine »

nkkollaw wrote: post #138
prokoudine wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, as a user I have to identify bottlenecks, now..? That would be my first question. Please do pay attention. The release notes specifically describe who did that and for what purpose, and what's in it for end-users. It's all there for you to read. Just please pay attention. > and I never thought speed was a problem of GIMP Which suggests that you never used such a basic feature as Gaussian blur in both Photoshop…

Are _you_ paying attention (your tone is absolutely horrible, by the way)? I'm saying that I doubt the project's priorities are in line with those of its users. Are you sure that performance is a problem for most users? I have talked to people about GIMP before, and it came out 0 times, while usability was the problem that forced most people to install Photoshop or go back to Windows. In the past 3 days, I've opened…

> Are _you_ paying attention (your tone is absolutely horrible, by the way)? I'm saying that I doubt the project's priorities are in line with those of its users.

You don't like my tone, and I don't like your inability to process basic information written in clear English in the first two paragraphs of an article that you are discussing, followed by making ridiculous offensive statements. Are we even?

> Are you sure that performance is a problem for most users?

The majority of people who work on large images and use filters do have issue with performance of GIMP. Helping them is a priority to us.

> Doing basic operations like moving, cropping, and resizing layers was so cumbersome that after 3 days I gave up and installed Photoshop 7.

I'm still waiting for those "4 times fewer steps" in Pinta.

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