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Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

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451–460 of 643 posts

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the BIOS API was copyrightable, they would have had to do nothing and simply declare that they owned the copyright to the API and thus no clones. Since they couldn't do that, they had to go to the extra step.

Replying to your comment below. I am not missing your point. I am merely pointing out that your point is incorrect as a matter of law. Copyright does not cover re-implementation. Copyright only covers copying. Your statement that IBM could sue company using a clean-room developed re-implementation of IMB's BIOS if IBM owned a copyright to their BIOS is incorrect as a matter of law.

Clean-room reverse engineering produces an implementation that is not a derivative of the original implementation. But if the API itself is copyrightable as a separate work from the implementation, then you have to consider whether the API of the reverse engineered implementation is a derivative of the API of the original implementation. The answer to this question is rather obviously yes, since the reverse engineering process is all about separating the API from the implementation and copying only the former. Clean-room reverse engineering is only useful in a world where APIs aren't copyrightable.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Oracle ships an S3 compatibility API: https://docs.us-phoenix-1.oraclecloud.com/Content/Object/Tas...

Does anyone actually use the Oracle Cloud? From my attempts, it's only full of misery and broken tech.

It's called brand recognition.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#453
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have you chosen to mingle the verbatim copying of function implementations (range check) with the API definition copying? You say google "admitted it" which is a loaded term and you use that to say "This isn't a cleanroom implementation". Google conceded the direct copying of one function implementation and thought it not relevant - IIRC the jury awarded Oracle $1 for that. The rest of the function implementation…

I didn't choose to mingle those things. That's just plain what the facts are. I get that you don't like them, but that's tough beans. The case goes into discussing this directly, indicating that Google's cleanroom efforts give it evidence that it proceeded in good faith, but good faith alone does not intrinsically absolve you of admitted copying (which is an infringement) that's found elsewhere. Now if you did an ACT…

"I get that you don't like them, but that's tough beans."

It's hard to overstate how difficult it is to separate what you want the law to be from what it is. This is why people do so badly at representing themselves, and even lawyers have this problem.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#454

> Part of Google’s defense focused on the idea that Java was developed for desktop computers, while Android was created for phones and other mobile devices. Is this really the best defense? The tag line is "write once, run anywhere" after all. I remember back in my CS days (mid/late 90s) when Java was first being pushed at my uni, the overly-enthusiastic vibe even back then was that Java would eventually be found eve…

True, but the version of Java for phones was J2ME, which was different from J2SE. Android implemented the API of the latter.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem has nothing to do with using the Java API. It has everything to do with copying the OracleJDK API and implementation then building a secondary non-compliant JVM to run it. The OracleJDK (which is different from the OpenJDK) is not licensed in a way that allows copying. Um, no. The case has solely to do with the copyright of the SSO of 37 Java API's that Google used. This has nothing to do with their VM.…

You read one part of a sentence and then ignored the other part. "It has everything to do with copying the OracleJDK API and implementation"

Actually, both parts were incorrect. This has nothing to do with implementation whatsoever. This copyright case is based solely on the SSO of 37 Java API interfaces and nothing else.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#456
post #97
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did make those representations, and Google did claim that. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/05/suns-jonathan-sc...

No, they didn't. If I hand you a bag of balls and say you're allowed to play with the purple and green balls inside, I haven't given you permission to play with any of the other balls. In this case, the different balls are the different dismemberments/rights related to Java.

Sun defended Java with the trademark and the compatibility kit, not copyright on the API. It never occurred to anyone (as it shouldn't now) that there was copyright on the API.

[edit] Jonathan Schwartz: "The strategy was, we agree on these open APIs, then we compete on implementations."

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#457
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a fundamental difference between: Blackbox testing -> API Specification -> Implementation and Copy API Specification -> Implementaton In the first case, you will come up with something similar but ultimately original. In the second case you are blatantly copying someone else's work.

People who reversed engineered the IBM BIOS had the API specification -- actually they had the entire source code. They didn't just fire random interrupts at the BIOS and see what it did. But what they did do was take that specification and describe it the detail necessary for completely fresh implementation.

Not true at all. It was a clean-room reverse engineering job. Yes, they could have looked at the API, but they did not. More specifically, they erected an information wall between those who had the API specification and those who did not, and used the results from those who did not.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court has made the point now that literally just the class and method names are subject to copyright.

Isn't Java open source? (Does this not include the APIs that are part of it?)

OpenJDK is presently under GPL 2, with the "classpath exception" at the end: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk9/jdk9/file/a08cbfc0e4ec/LICEN...

At the time, though, I don't believe it was open source and OpenJDK originated as a cleanroom rewrite of it, and has since been integrated.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#459
post #343
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1% will be things like String.methodNoOneUses or ObscureClass. Even if they aren't identical they will be close enough for 99.999% of the programs people write.

How do you propose they do this black box testing?

It is not copyrights problem that obeying the law might be difficult.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#460
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1% will be things like String.methodNoOneUses or ObscureClass. Even if they aren't identical they will be close enough for 99.999% of the programs people write.

So bugs nobody files then? Why do you think this is a useful distinction. Either APIs aren't copyrightable or we should pass a law that says they aren't immediately.

Because? You want the world to work that way? Well, it doesn't. APIs are copyrightable.
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