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What is the Speed of Gravity?

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11–20 of 122 posts

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#11

I've always thought what we call 'speed of light' is the indirect observation of a structural property of (this) the universe. A property that has something to do with movement in general and not only the movement of light (the movement of space itself?). Another interisting property is the 0º Kelvin (absolute zero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

I'm pretty sure that Einstein intuitively "guessed" that the speed of light would be the fastest possible speed and used that fact to work out the rest of the equations. E = mc^2 was the bizarre discovery that those equations yielded, and it was so weird that he felt like he had made a mistake at first.

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#12
Reminds me of a thought experiment that's always bugged me: if you had an incredibly long see-saw or lever, like the length of the galaxy, would movement at one end instantaneously be matched by movement at the other end? (I think the reason it bugs me is because the object itself is preposterous, but I still want to know)

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#13
post #3

The point of the article is in Clifford M. Will "The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment" (2001) http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2001-4/ "Gravitational wave damping has been detected in an amount that agrees with general relativity to half a percent using the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar," I also have something to say to the first question in comments there, to which the article aut…

Something that puzzles me about "the speed of light in X" discussions is exactly the confusion over whether the speed of light is "different" in a medium. On the one hand, it seems like it isn't, since no actual photons are moving more slowly. On the other, things like Cherenkov radiation seem to indicate that the apparent speed of light matters for things that you'd expect to be based on the constant speed of light in a vacuum. There's a physicist, Ronald Mallett, who has suggested an experiment to see if the constant speed of light or the apparent speed of light is what matters for frame-dragging (!).

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#14
post #3

The point of the article is in Clifford M. Will "The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment" (2001) http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2001-4/ "Gravitational wave damping has been detected in an amount that agrees with general relativity to half a percent using the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar," I also have something to say to the first question in comments there, to which the article aut…

As a slightly-related follow-on, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation for a nice example of what happens in the case of a charged particle moving through a medium more quickly than the speed of light in that medium.

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#15
post #12

Reminds me of a thought experiment that's always bugged me: if you had an incredibly long see-saw or lever, like the length of the galaxy, would movement at one end instantaneously be matched by movement at the other end? (I think the reason it bugs me is because the object itself is preposterous, but I still want to know)

Well you already know it won't be instantaneous, & there's only a few ways it can fail. What do you think will happen?

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#16
This is all well and good, but what the article is talking about is the speed of the propagation of gravity waves. I've never heard anyone who wasn't a crank argue that gravity waves travel at anything other than the speed of light. As the article confirms, observation of pulsars has confirmed the speed of gravity waves to very close to the speed of light.

However, I think the larger objection goes something like this:

Gravitational attraction contains information about the location of an object (say, for the purposes of argument, a singularity). Information may not travel faster than the speed of light, by relativity. Information may not escape the event horizon of a black hole, because to do so would require it to travel faster than the speed of light (or to use some funny quantum teleportation that Hawking describes as the mechanism behind Hawking radiation), but which is not described by relativity.

Therefore it follows that the information about the location of a singularity behind the event horizon of a black hole is somehow travelling "faster than light". This is of course impossible if relativity is correct, which leads to a big WTF?

My guess, and I am most emphatically not a physicist, is that you get some funny macroscopic quantum effects near a black hole, which allows Hawking radiation (and therefore also the encoded information about the objects that fell into the black hole) out, and also lets out the information about the location of the singularity itself, so that objects outside the event horizon can be attracted to it.

Perhaps studying black holes in sufficient depth (pardon the pun) will allow us to finally unify QM and relativity.

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#17
post #4

The speed of gravity is either infinity or millions of times faster than the speed of light. If the speed of gravity was the speed of light, then heavy objects passing near the earth would have more gravity than objects passing away. Less of the gravity beans would be arriving to be measured. Like the red shift in light or the doppler effect with sound. I see gravity as more of a property of the universe, every atom…

If the speed of gravity was the speed of light, then heavy objects passing near the earth would have more gravity than objects passing away.

This is a problem because...?

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#18
post #4

The speed of gravity is either infinity or millions of times faster than the speed of light. If the speed of gravity was the speed of light, then heavy objects passing near the earth would have more gravity than objects passing away. Less of the gravity beans would be arriving to be measured. Like the red shift in light or the doppler effect with sound. I see gravity as more of a property of the universe, every atom…

If the speed of gravity was the speed of light, then heavy objects passing near the earth would have more gravity than objects passing away. This is a problem because...?

problem because if you had a stable highly elliptical orbit of two bodies, the attraction would be greater during the approaching phase than the departure phase. The equation would not be balanced. Elliptical orbits would degrade due to the pulling being greater on arrival than departure. This is not the case. Maybe it is only a problem as you approach light speed.

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#19

I've always thought what we call 'speed of light' is the indirect observation of a structural property of (this) the universe. A property that has something to do with movement in general and not only the movement of light (the movement of space itself?). Another interisting property is the 0º Kelvin (absolute zero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

Your intuition is right. Einstein is famous for the theory of relativity not because he was the first discoverer of the relativity equations (they're called the Lorentz transformation for a reason), but because he proposed that the speed of light was encoded in the structure of the universe, and that the universe is not the three-dimensional Euclidean space we think it is.

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_special_relativity#E... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space -- the space of special relativity

Re: What is the Speed of Gravity?

#20
post #16

This is all well and good, but what the article is talking about is the speed of the propagation of gravity waves. I've never heard anyone who wasn't a crank argue that gravity waves travel at anything other than the speed of light. As the article confirms, observation of pulsars has confirmed the speed of gravity waves to very close to the speed of light. However, I think the larger objection goes something like thi…

What is the technical definition of "information"? I know what information is in a colloquial sense, and I know something about it's technical definition in the field of computer science, but I don't know what physicists mean when they use the word. Is information the same thing as light? Is it analagous to light? Is it a property of light? Matter?
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