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Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

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Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#41

There are currently 20 replies here, and of those, 19 didn't read your question properly and just answered with a different email provider. I know there's a trend on HN of people commenting without reading linked articles but this is particularly bad. It's a short question on this page. In answer to your question, this is a multifaceted problem that comes down to: what do I use email for and how else can that work. I…

Up voted because I'm one of the guilty people you mentioned I wish there were a standard of sorts in im space. It's not signal because it doesn't allow for saving conversations.

I can strongly recommend the Matrix.org standard for this sort of messaging. I have only been positively surprised by every part of it.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repliers didn't understand the question. And I didn't understand it very well either. I still don't think I understand it.

"alternative to email" doesn't seem too difficult to parse. Beyond that, if you're looking for a "why", the OP could have elaborated on that alright. Another user, @davewasthere, has explained this well below though.

Could've been phrased as, "if you were to ditch email" no? OPs question is confusing.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up voted because I'm one of the guilty people you mentioned I wish there were a standard of sorts in im space. It's not signal because it doesn't allow for saving conversations.

> standard of sorts in im space. As mentioned, there's XMPP. As well as Signal, there's also Matrix.org which is used by Riot.im. You could argue there's now too many competing standards (ActivityPub has some similarities in a way too), but without having ever implemented an XMPP client myself, seemingly people had enough issues with it for there to be significant traction given to replacements like Matrix. Personall…

XMPP is still the protocol of choice for most IM/IM-like client-server services.

The major difference is that all the major players have turned off (or never enabled) federation, and dont advertise that its xmpp.

Honestly I think the non-xmpp open source projects will never succeed to the point of being ubiquitous. NIH strikes again.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> standard of sorts in im space. As mentioned, there's XMPP. As well as Signal, there's also Matrix.org which is used by Riot.im. You could argue there's now too many competing standards (ActivityPub has some similarities in a way too), but without having ever implemented an XMPP client myself, seemingly people had enough issues with it for there to be significant traction given to replacements like Matrix. Personall…

XMPP is still the protocol of choice for most IM/IM-like client-server services. The major difference is that all the major players have turned off (or never enabled) federation, and dont advertise that its xmpp. Honestly I think the non-xmpp open source projects will never succeed to the point of being ubiquitous. NIH strikes again.

Sadly openly federated XMPP is far from ubiquitous (relative to SMTP, or HTTP as federation success stories, or proprietary alternatives like WhatsApp and Slack).

Matrix is also far from ubiquitous too, but we categorically did not create it out of NIH syndrome. The whole point was to provide a protocol with entirely different primitives: history sync rather than message passing; group channels rather than 1:1; decentralisation rather than federation. And also a totally different governance model (no extensions; just a fat monolithic baseline that should “just work”). Obviously the experiment is still on and it remains to be seen if Matrix will succeed to the point of being ubiquitous, but to accuse it of being NIH is massively to miss the point.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XMPP is still the protocol of choice for most IM/IM-like client-server services. The major difference is that all the major players have turned off (or never enabled) federation, and dont advertise that its xmpp. Honestly I think the non-xmpp open source projects will never succeed to the point of being ubiquitous. NIH strikes again.

Sadly openly federated XMPP is far from ubiquitous (relative to SMTP, or HTTP as federation success stories, or proprietary alternatives like WhatsApp and Slack). Matrix is also far from ubiquitous too, but we categorically did not create it out of NIH syndrome. The whole point was to provide a protocol with entirely different primitives: history sync rather than message passing; group channels rather than 1:1; decen…

XMPP has multi user chat and history sync extensions.

It also has a several open implementations that have proven scalability.

I’m also not really sure what you mean about “decentralised rather than federated”. This is from the matrix.org faq:

> Matrix provides open federation - meaning that anyone on the internet can join into the Matrix ecosystem by deploying their own server.

No extensions means no customisation for the purpose at hand or for future enhancements.

So tell me again about how matrix is so different?

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly openly federated XMPP is far from ubiquitous (relative to SMTP, or HTTP as federation success stories, or proprietary alternatives like WhatsApp and Slack). Matrix is also far from ubiquitous too, but we categorically did not create it out of NIH syndrome. The whole point was to provide a protocol with entirely different primitives: history sync rather than message passing; group channels rather than 1:1; decen…

XMPP has multi user chat and history sync extensions. It also has a several open implementations that have proven scalability. I’m also not really sure what you mean about “decentralised rather than federated”. This is from the matrix.org faq: > Matrix provides open federation - meaning that anyone on the internet can join into the Matrix ecosystem by deploying their own server. No extensions means no customisation f…

I’m not disputing that XMPP can be used to build a modern chat environment with history and group chat. The question there is one over the primitives that the protocol provides. As you say, these features (and decentralisation, via FMUC) are provided as optional extensions in XMPP. In Matrix, they are the core primitives of the protocol. To put it more concretely: Matrix works by replicating chunks of conversation history between servers - not by forwarding stanzas. And there is simply no concept of a 1:1-only coversation; all conversations happen in rooms which may have an arbitrary number of users.

On the federation/decentralisation question: yes, matrix servers federate with one another networkwise. But the data they exchange is decentralised: it is equally replicated over all the servers which participate in a room, using a merkle DAG to enforce integrity (like git, or a blockchain).

> No extensions means no customisation for the purpose at hand or for future enhancements

This is not true. Matrix is extensible at the data level - you can put whatever you like into it and define whatever semantics for it, a bit like HTTP. But the API itself evolves as a single entity released by Matrix.org, and folks are very welcome to contribute their future enhancements into it.

> So tell me again about how matrix is so different?

A loose analogy could be svn versus git (architecturally, given XMPP is much higher perf than Matrix currently). Classic XMPP MUCs are centralised to a given domain like a svn repo; if you try hard enough you can decentralise them (FMUC), just like svk existed for svn. Or alternatively you could write a new system with different primitives like git.

I hasten to add that the analogy is not exact and Matrix isn’t remotely as successful as git, but it’s an example of where sometimes it doesn’t hurt for a different technology to come along and shake things up.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#47
I need GNUPG to encrypt messages from my friends when we brainstorm ideas and inventions. So I use Thunderbird with Engimail I have Yahoo and Gmail accounts and set up message filters.

I'd like to have a webmail address that does GNUPG on it, but the average user does not use encryption.

Also I dislike having to give out my cell phone to verify because I get junk calls when they sell my info.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#48
My main complaints with Gmail are, 1) snooping content and metadata; 2) resisting anonymity; and 3) nuking accounts without recourse.

For anonymizing identity and metadata, I use Tor. Which I access via nested VPN chains, just in case. To secure content, I use GnuPG. That is, Thunderbird with Enigmail and TorBirdy. I've found both vfemail.net and cock.li to be decent no-bullshit providers, and both have Tor onion mail servers.

Sure, some of your correspondents may use Gmail. But there won't be anything useful for Google to see.

Re: Ask HN: If you were to ditch Gmail, what would be your alternative to email?

#50
post #17

Gmail has the best spam prevention. I'd love to hear arguments against this, but its why i stay.

I have a gmail and fastmail address (the fastmail address is plastered all over the internet in plaintext as well), I can't say I've noticed much of a difference between the two.

Agree with this, I have been using Fastmail for almost 3 years and its spam filter works pretty well for me.
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