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Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

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Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#311
post #28

I think the part that gets lost in all of this is that Sun offered to license Java to Google previously for $100M. [1] Google turned that down and bypassed Sun because they didn't want to pay (or license). At the time, Sun was happy to see Java being used by Google, even without the license. Still, Google knew exactly what they were doing. [2] My point is, they did this to themselves and they knew what they were poss…

But the thing is Google didn't use the Oracle Java engine. They implemented their own runtime environment that's mostly API compatible with Java (and getting further from that as the years go on). This gets into really critical concerns around APIs. If commercial product A sucks and I'm in a shop where we made our own drop in replacement that implement's A's APIs .. then we open source that drop-in replacement and pu…

Can't believe so many people argue against this.

Sometimes I forget what a corporate brainwash hackernews can be.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#312
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion: I feel Google should be punished for what they did to Java. Maybe the mechanism being used is wrong, but Android bastardized Java and as an Android developer I feel real damage has been done to the health of the Java ecosystem by having billions of devices run fragmented Java-but-not-Java. Google has started to make it right with the switch to openJDK and Desugar, but in a lot of ways it’s too litt…

> Android bastardized Java > I feel real damage has been done to the health of the Java ecosystem by having billions of devices run fragmented Java-but-not-Java Your feelings are not a legal basis for punishment.

Did I say they were? You’re patching into the use of the word feeling.

This just seems like a replay of J++. No one outside of Oracle or Google can determine the facts behind those statements you quoted, so the best outsiders like us can do is go based on “feelings” based on basic reasoning

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If API are copyrightable how do clean room implementations work? It seems IBM could sue the clone makers for the BIOS API if that's the case.

I think because there are no identifiers. The BIOS API is: fill registers with these values, run this interrupt. That's different from openFileWithName(String fileName).

It's really not.

If I take an API, mangle the names, and then provide a shim that translates calls is that suddenly radically different?

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#314
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B. Java is not licensed under the GPL. OpenJDK is.

OpenJDK didn't exist when Google developed Android, so it would have been very hard for them to use it.

The first commercial release of android was 2008, the first release of openjdk was 2006. It wouldn't be that hard to start with an openjdk repo, and delete all the files as you added in the davlik code. Release it as GPL, and call it a derivative work. Not that I think they should have to do that just for the sake of implementing the API

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#315
post #273
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Google used the implementations!

I thought one of the main issues was that there was only one natural implementation of many API functions. Like when you assign students a coding question, you will see many answers come back identical even though no one cheated.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#316
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the story Google likes to sell. Nokia and Sony-Ericsson flagship phones were quite good.

No they weren't, I developed for them.

Me too, alumni from that little company located in Espoo.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#317
post #175

It may be helpful for readers to look at the actual meat and potatoes of the decision itself. I recommend jumping in at Page 27 of the decision so that they can see how the fair use factors were evaluated in this case: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or... Fair use has four factors, lets see how it shook out: 1) Purpose and Character: Google tried to argue that because android is free that i…

If API are copyrightable how do clean room implementations work? It seems IBM could sue the clone makers for the BIOS API if that's the case.

Does that mean all the cloud providers who are copying S3's API for object storage are violating some copyright?

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#318
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is effectively impossible to take something as complex as the Java API, do black box testing, and come up with an exact copy. Google's API being slightly different is ultimately the point. The process yields a new original work even if it ends up being 99% the same as Oracle's API.

The 1% that's different being... what? Bugs? Like I said, any differences in Google's version of the API would, by definition, be interoperability problems that need to be corrected. To make that more concrete: if Oracle's string concatenation function is called `String.concat` and Google's is called `String.append`, then code which calls `String.concat` isn't going to work with Google's implementation, and code whic…

The 1% will be things like String.methodNoOneUses or ObscureClass. Even if they aren't identical they will be close enough for 99.999% of the programs people write.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#319
post #274
post #175

It may be helpful for readers to look at the actual meat and potatoes of the decision itself. I recommend jumping in at Page 27 of the decision so that they can see how the fair use factors were evaluated in this case: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or... Fair use has four factors, lets see how it shook out: 1) Purpose and Character: Google tried to argue that because android is free that i…

RE> Nature of the Copyrighted Work: Dealt with previously In my entire career you could not copyright an API. There is good reason for this. If you wanted to do business with certain entities, the implementation had to be multisource. The new implementation had to come from a cleanroom, but in this case it came from open source (which seems equivalent). Therefore you have one judge making one decision that is an anom…

There's a lot of similar responses regarding the API copyright issue. APIs have been 'subject to copyright' for 4 years, since the 2014 decision in this case. Lets see some key details:

This is the 2012 ruling: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1202.pdf

Alsup indicates that SSO isn't dead law, but finds that APIs aren't copyrightable because they are 'the only one way to write" things to get the key functionality. Copyright doesn't cover purely functional elements and since the expression and the function are the same, copyright bows out.

Note: I like Alsup, but this argument is based on obviously factually incorrect premises which are blown up on appeal.

Here's the appeal in 2014: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or...

They summarize the facts as follows: " And, the court informed the jury that Google conceded that it copied the declaring code used in the 37 packages verbatim. The court also instructed the jury that Google conceded copying the rangeCheck function and the eight decompiled security files, but that Google maintained that its use of those lines of code was de minimis. See Final Charge to the Jury (Phase One), Oracle Am., Inc. v. Google Inc., 3:10-cv3561 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 30, 2012), ECF No. 1018 at 14 (“With respect to the infringement issues concerning the rangeCheck and other similar files, Google agrees that the accused lines of code and comments came from the copyrighted material but contends that the amounts involved were so negligible as to be de minimis and thus should be excused.”). "

Ie: Google copied and admitted it copied. This isn't a cleanroom implementation.

For more details on why they found copyrightability, see the discussion starting on p.17. There's a lot in there, and having a discussion about it (or at least a proper one) requires people to look at the actual text.

Edit: Made the formatting better.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#320
post #175

It may be helpful for readers to look at the actual meat and potatoes of the decision itself. I recommend jumping in at Page 27 of the decision so that they can see how the fair use factors were evaluated in this case: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or... Fair use has four factors, lets see how it shook out: 1) Purpose and Character: Google tried to argue that because android is free that i…

From the ruling:

> The Java API is a collection of “pre-written Java source code programs for common and more advanced computer functions.”

I'm not too familiar with Java, but I believe they are mistaking APIs for libraries there. Did Google infringe on the libraries or the actual API?

Like did Google actually infringe on what Oracle calls the "Java API" (but is actually a library), and are we all talking past each other when discussing "API copyrightability" when Google may have actually been found of infringing a library?

I think the CAFC may be just as confused about which one is which and on which it's ruling.

Additionally, how would this relate to the Java programming language being "free" and why would Google infringe on anything if it was free?

I don't know the actual details of Sun's licensing, though, but even from what Oracle is claiming now, it seems that Oracle's case is quite weak, and I don't see how its license specifically banned Google from doing whatever they think they did.

Finally, the CAFC's pro-patent rulings are almost always overturned by the Supreme Court, and if I believe they wouldn't even have gotten this case if Oracle hadn't also accused Oracle initially of patent infringement. If Oracle had only accused Google of copyright infringement, I think some other court would have gotten the case, maybe a court with less of a bad record in understanding IP law (going by Supreme Court's rulings at least). It's just a shame that Obama's pro-IP laws lawyers got in the way and convinced the Supreme Court to reject the case.

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