Earlier quoted context omitted.
GNU/Linux is a partial (but incomplete, since no Linux distro is unix(tm) certified) a reimplementation of proprietary Unix, and with billion-dollar companies like Red Hat and IBM it's certainly a commercial endeavor at proprietary Unix's expense. It would seem to be an attractive target if a plaintiff like SCO could somehow move the case to the federal circuit (as none of the standard appeals courts have declared AP…
Reimplementation does not necessarily violate copyright. Copying does violate copyright (absent fair use). Like verbatim copying. Example, Google didn't have to use the “java.lang.Math.max(a,b)” header, but they did. They did copy because they wanted to leverage the existing Java developer base who would easily be able to develop for Android, without having to do the hard work of building their own ecosystem. Overall…
Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
291–300 of 643 posts
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
What exactly was 'copied' by Google? Was it actual code directly copied or just the general design / APIs that were mirrored by their Android Java playform?
The court has made the point now that literally just the class and method names are subject to copyright.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#293I think the part that gets lost in all of this is that Sun offered to license Java to Google previously for $100M. [1] Google turned that down and bypassed Sun because they didn't want to pay (or license). At the time, Sun was happy to see Java being used by Google, even without the license. Still, Google knew exactly what they were doing. [2] My point is, they did this to themselves and they knew what they were poss…
Google knew what they were doing and IMO they were right. I still don't think Google or anybody should have to ask for Oracle's permission for reimplementing a JVM (as long as it's done cleanly). You seem to put the blame on Google for not wanting to pay $100M at the time but what if instead it was a small startup who simply couldn't afford that cost? I'm not worried about Google in the least, I am however concerned…
It's legal precedential value is limited, because it was a copyright decision in the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC).
The general principle for a precedent is that precedent for court X is set by the appeals court that hears appeals from X, and the appeals court that hears appeals from that appeals court, and so on.
So, for example, the district courts in the 9th Circuit (which covers the west coast tech companies) gets precedent from the Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit, and from the Supreme Court. In particular, this is the appeals path for copyright cases.
The appeals path changes for a few special subjects. Patent appeals from all of the Federal district courts, for example, go to CAFC. So, in matters of patents, a district court in the 9th district would look to CAFC for patent precedent, not the 9th circuit appeals court.
Oracle sued Google for both copyright infringement and patent infringement. The parties were OK enough with the outcome of the patent part of the case that no one appealed that, but the copyright decision was appealed.
You might expect that this means the appeal would go to the appeals court for the 9th Circuit, because only copyright issues were being appealed, but that's not how it works. Where the appeal goes is decided by what was at issue in the original case, not by what was at issue in the appeal.
The rule is that if a case has both a special subject, such as patents, that points to CAFC, and other subjects, such as copyright, that point to the appeals court for the circuit the district court is in, the appeal goes to CAFC. CAFC handles the whole thing.
When CAFC gets a subject that normally does not come to them, but got there because it was attached to a case that also had a subject that does go to them, the rule is that they are supposed to follow the precedent of the appeals court for the circuit the district court is in. They don't set precedent in that district.
For example, if two companies sued over copyright in the 9th Circuit, with no other issues involved that would deflect the normal appeals path away from the 9th circuit's appeals court, the district could would look to that appeals court and the Supreme Court for precedent. CAFC opinions on copyright would at most be interesting opinions it might look to for insight, just like it might look to courts of appeals for other circuits, but only it's own circuit's appeals court and the Supreme Court would be precedent it has to actually follow.
PS: I think we'd be better off if CAFC just got the patent appeals. If a case has both copyright and patent issues, send patent appeals issues to CAFC and copyright appeals issues to the circuit's appeals court. At the trial level we merge cases that would normally be in different courts into one (e.g., if a case has both state and federal issues, it goes to federal court and the federal court handles the state issues).
That makes sense at trial court level because they involve examining witnesses, examining experts, and similar. If different issues were heard in different courts, many of those witnesses would have to go to multiple courts. It could be a major hardship on them. You'd want to hold them all in the same area, at near the same time, to minimize travel. That could be hard to schedule.
Appeals courts, on the other hand, just work off the transcript from the trial. The only people needed there are the lawyers arguing the case. The lawyers for appeals are usually more specialized than trial lawyers, so there are quite possibly different lawyers handling the different issues in the appeal.
It would not be much of a hardship, if any, for different issues to go to different appeals courts, as long as a little care is taken with scheduling.
Heck, it might even be less of a hardship. Imagine you are a copyright appeals lawyer in the 9th Circuit. Normally all your appeals court appearances are in the 9th Circuit, and you have a few cases going on there. Then some stupid mixed patent/copyright case comes along, and no you've got a case on the other side of the country to deal with.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s like I have a brand that makes widgets and gives out the plans to our widgets. Larry finds plans to one of my old widgets and builds it into his awesome product and millions of people learn how to use the old version of my widget. But my old widget kind of sucks and I’ve been releasing new widgets that fix a lot of issues. Millions of people are gnashing their teeth over the old widget but Larry won’t update whi…
That sounds like a trademark complaint, not a copyright issue.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that wasn't the only approach available. There are OEMs selling commercial JDKs for embedded use, with their own VM, JIT and AOT compiler variations, and library extensions. Contrary to Google, they always played by the rules.
In 2008, none were as good as Dalvik for the use case.
Nokia and Sony-Ericsson flagship phones were quite good.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#296It may be helpful for readers to look at the actual meat and potatoes of the decision itself. I recommend jumping in at Page 27 of the decision so that they can see how the fair use factors were evaluated in this case: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or... Fair use has four factors, lets see how it shook out: 1) Purpose and Character: Google tried to argue that because android is free that i…
If API are copyrightable how do clean room implementations work? It seems IBM could sue the clone makers for the BIOS API if that's the case.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
Triviality isn't the determining factor of what's copyrightable. Edit: And particularly there's tons of case law that this stuff isn't copyrightable, see Sony v. Bleem, where a company literally wrote an emulator of a PS1, and courts said that was fine. Even to straight up sell as a competing product, and for running on competitors machines. Edit2: And the otherwise shitty DMCA even has explicit exemptions for softwa…
In Sony v. Bleem they used blackbox testing and created their own original code from that. If Google had done the sam they would have been fine.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#298It may be helpful for readers to look at the actual meat and potatoes of the decision itself. I recommend jumping in at Page 27 of the decision so that they can see how the fair use factors were evaluated in this case: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or... Fair use has four factors, lets see how it shook out: 1) Purpose and Character: Google tried to argue that because android is free that i…
If API are copyrightable how do clean room implementations work? It seems IBM could sue the clone makers for the BIOS API if that's the case.
Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
> reverse engineering That is certainly an issue if you reverse engineer anything. Google went out of their way to NOT reverse engineer it. The issue is can a public API be copyrighted. That is the scary issue.
I don't get why it's a scary issue or even controversial why an API would be subject copyright. An API, in my mind, is similar to design drawings or blueprints. Independently figuring out how to implement those drawings doesn't change the fact that you copied the design.