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Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

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Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#131
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All telecommunication companies, Nokia, Motorola, Alcatel-Lucent, .... have their network elements APIs copyrighted and pattented. Try to sell a device that comunicates with a e.g. BTS station without buying their licenses, to see how it ends.

Mobile Telecoms standards are written by 3GPP, all BTSs and handsets (and for that matter, interfaces like 'A') are standard, and controlled by 3GPP. I believe they are open.

Not they belong to the companies and some of them are available under FRAND licensing.

For the rest there is the 3GPP patent platform.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#132

It's a shame that there was no one like judge Alsup in the appeals court. Now it's about legal phrases and licensing terms instead of common sense all over again.

Unpopular opinion: I feel Google should be punished for what they did to Java. Maybe the mechanism being used is wrong, but Android bastardized Java and as an Android developer I feel real damage has been done to the health of the Java ecosystem by having billions of devices run fragmented Java-but-not-Java. Google has started to make it right with the switch to openJDK and Desugar, but in a lot of ways it’s too litt…

>Google has started to make it right with the switch to openJDK and Desugar, but in a lot of ways it’s too little very late.

What functional changes accompanied Google's switch to OpenJDK? Doesn't Android still use its own incompatible VM?

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All irrelevant. If I check out an open source project, expand it significantly, fix tons of bugs, increase performance, and commit the changes upstream, I have contributed back. The fact that I have built another product on top of that isn't 100% open source does not nullify the huge contributions of the former. Chrome isn't open source. Chromium is. Chromium contains V8. V8 alone launched the huge nodejs community.…

People in glass houses (or Google offices) should not throw stones. Also, I have a much longer history of criticizing Apple than Google, and give Microsoft significant flak on a regular basis for the way they've managed several aspects of Windows 10... including Mobile. I have no financial investment or implicit bias in any of these companies such as yourself. I have no problem with proprietary software, I have a pro…

The proof is in the pudding. Prior to the introduction of Android, embedded Linux in consumer electronics was awful and many devices often selected Windows Embedded, QNX, etc. I worked on embedded Windows in automotive devices and know first hand how a) horrible it was (slow, buggy, insecure) and b) how horrible to Linux replacements were that tried to rig up a half functioning platform.

Most small companies do not have the skills to take vanilla Linux userspace, or even Debian or Ubuntu, and build out a polished mobile platform that they can shove into a thermostat or watch. The only semi-popular Linux attempts that succeeded in volume were HTML based like WebOS, which again, simply used a fork of an off the shelf complete platform mostly built by a corporation (e.g. WebKit)

You can argue all you want, but evidence suggests otherwise. Someone building a sealed, firmware for a device today that doesn't permit third party apps, still chooses AOSP as a base more often than not, and the reason they do so, is because there is huge value in the platform. Whether you like the design or not, whether you think it is bloated or not, people think that using AOSP to bootstrap their HW lowers their time to market or costs. And for those people, they are receiving value.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#134
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is Google didn't use the Oracle Java engine. They implemented their own runtime environment that's mostly API compatible with Java (and getting further from that as the years go on). This gets into really critical concerns around APIs. If commercial product A sucks and I'm in a shop where we made our own drop in replacement that implement's A's APIs .. then we open source that drop-in replacement and pu…

GNU/Linux is a partial (but incomplete, since no Linux distro is unix(tm) certified) a reimplementation of proprietary Unix, and with billion-dollar companies like Red Hat and IBM it's certainly a commercial endeavor at proprietary Unix's expense. It would seem to be an attractive target if a plaintiff like SCO could somehow move the case to the federal circuit (as none of the standard appeals courts have declared AP…

Afaik there are several certified GNU/Linux derivatives.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#135
Its really interesting how Microsoft changed their JVM into .net, with a nearly identical library API but so slightly different (often Upper case methods instead of lower case).

Would be an interesting idea if Google could compile JVM bytecode apps to run on .net VM. Of course JSV8 engine would be better, but is more difficult.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reverse engineering That is certainly an issue if you reverse engineer anything. Google went out of their way to NOT reverse engineer it. The issue is can a public API be copyrighted. That is the scary issue.

> The issue is can a public API be copyrighted. That is the scary issue. In Roman Law there is the principle "In dubio pro reo" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_dubio_pro_reo ), which means that if there are doubts whether the culprit is guilty or not, he/she may not be convicted.

I feel like this probably is intended to apply in criminal cases and not civil. (And a copyright case like this would certainly be civil, and not criminal)

In the US, it at least seems that something similar does, in so far as we require a unanimous vote by the jury to convict someone in a criminal trial, but a simple majority for a civil.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#137
post #49

from TFA: "Oracle claims Google was in such a rush in the mid-2000s to create an operating system for mobile devices that the company used key parts of copyrighted Java technology without paying royalties. " If this is true, it certainly isnt happening again. Google dominates smartphones and could very easily decide to phase out java for go/rust, torpedoing whatever rent-seeking strategy Oracle had originally devised…

> The software exists as a 90s anachronism to the hubris of dotcom.

The point is that in BigCo environments the norm still is "no one ever got fired for buying IBM and Oracle" and even if that were not true shitloads of enterprise crapware are bound to Oracle's offerings and that alone will secure revenue for Oracle for decades to come. Hell when I look at the average age of stuff in the banking and insurance sector I would not be surprised if Oracle is still going strong in a century.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#139
post #122
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The language of choice to build interactive applications on the web before JS was really viable was Java. I find this amusing. No one ever built anything meaningful client-side with Java. There's a reason Microsoft laughed off Java as "write once, debug many".

Um Eclipse? Netbeans? ArgoUML? (just out of top of my head). Your statement would be true if you have said "anything meaningful client-side on the web with Java". On the web Java was restricted to Java applets and was never really in competition with JavaScript. Desktop is quite another story.

Agreed, my context was browser specific applets. Clearly Java has some moderate success on the desktop.

I do think Sun entertained Java superseding Javascript in the browser - it just didn't work out that way.

Re: Oracle Wins Revival of Billion-Dollar Case Against Google

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is Google didn't use the Oracle Java engine. They implemented their own runtime environment that's mostly API compatible with Java (and getting further from that as the years go on). This gets into really critical concerns around APIs. If commercial product A sucks and I'm in a shop where we made our own drop in replacement that implement's A's APIs .. then we open source that drop-in replacement and pu…

Is this akin to React vs. Preact? Same API, entirely different codebase. Allows me to drop in a replacement if Facebook does a stupid.

It does sound similar
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