'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom • Hacker News Board

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#71

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #40

If we get a universal basic income set equal to a living wage, then the "gig economy" can go back to being actual gigs, that is, people doing a bit extra to get a bit extra.

What's a living wage? $30K/yr?

How many Americans are there (or just American adults)? 325M / 250M

What's those two figures multiplied together? 9.8T / 7.5T

What's the total federal tax revenues in 2016? 3.5T

To what multiple would we need to raise taxes to pay for such a program? Raise to 3.8x current taxation levels / raise to 3.1x current taxation levels.

All that assumes that basic prices wouldn't rise in an environment where money metaphorically fell like manna. (That $30K would have the same purchasing power as it does today, which seems unlikely.)

Adjust the assumptions as you like; IMO, there's no mathematically viable solution to a "living wage before the first hour of work".

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#72

Post by chrischen » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

fergie wrote: post #45

gambiting wrote: post #3

I was mostly agreeing with the article until this part: "His medallion, once worth $1.1 million, had plummeted in value to $180,000. The dramatic drop in the value of the medallion, which he had hoped to lease for $3,000 a month or sell to finance his retirement, wiped out his economic security. He faced financial ruin and poverty. And he was not alone." The medalions are stupid and shouldn't exist. Relying on their…

There are many good reasons to licence taxi(driver)s, and cap their number. For example: - to keep traffic down - to ensure a minimum standard of vehicle - to ensure safe, well-trained and responsible taxi drivers. - to ensure a fair level of income - etc. However the main problem with the medallion system is that they can be traded, speculated on, and used to extract "rent" from workers further down the chain. This…

The city should auction off the licenses annually. Still rent-seeking, but at least the rent seeking is the city/government.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#73

Post by Zak » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #23

Most taxi drivers must work very long hours to earn enough to live on -- the driver mentioned reportedly worked 100-120 hour weeks for 14 years. While it may be OK to do this for a short time, doing this as a lifestyle is not good for a society not at war. Such jobs should be replaced by technology / gigs / something else. Being displaced by the technology is painful for the folks affected, but we should focus on min…

Taxis are going to be replaced by robots within the lifetimes of most people reading this. I think it's been clear for a while that owning a large segment of that market is Uber's end game.

Under the classic hacker ethic, this is a good thing; humans shouldn't be forced to perform menial tasks. Of course, people currently performing those tasks for a living might not appreciate that. In the long term, however I think the safety advantage will be compelling.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#74

Post by reading-at-work » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

zackkatz wrote: post #43

I found the best quote from the article to be the last: > “Horses in Central Park are regulated,” he pointed out. “There’s 150 of them. They make a great living there, the guys on the horse and buggies. Say Uber comes in and says, ‘We want to bring in Uber horses. And we want to add 100,000.’ And let’s see how the market will handle it. We know what’s going to happen. No one will make money. They’re all around Centra…

I'm genuinely curious, have you taken a cab lately? Can you honestly say you prefer that experience to what Uber or Lyft provides?

I understand what that quote is saying, but I feel it's a false equivalency. There are already cars on the road in NYC. It's not like adding 10,000 horses to Central Park. Overall, the regulations on the taxi industry are the reason Uber and Lyft have been so successful - because they skirted the regulations, they were able to provide a much better user experience.

We need to take a look at which regulations are actually helpful and which are expensive and unnecessary.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#75

Post by bbddg » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

Agebor wrote: post #48

bbddg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need a citation for that last point. This is the exact logic that got us the 2008 crash.

Perhaps, but also most of technological progress in recent centuries. It's a shame humans have a bias for negativity.

Certainly lots of technological progress has been made through exploitation but as we see automation taking more and more jobs, maybe we can end that cycle.

This is how progress in society is made. See a problem in the world and try to make it better. I don't think we need to have people working such degrading jobs to have technological progress, but you need it to have this many billionaires running around.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#76

Post by jamespo » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #34

shusson wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is we are heading in the direction of more inequality where people feel like slaves to the economy.

Slaves because they have to work at all? Or slaves because flipping burgers doesn't pay for for a McMansion? Because someone else makes millions does that absolve someone else from working at all at whatever value they can provide?

those are definitely the only 2 options

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#77

Post by mikepurvis » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #57

refurb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I actually feel bad for medallion owners, even if the medallion system is a bad one. The gov't sets ups a system, tells you the rules and says "if you buy an expensive medallion, you can drive a cab and make a living". The value of the medallion is purely based on the gov't promise to maintain the system. So you buy one (or many) and a few years later someone does a work around and the gov't says "oh we…

There are reportedly about 14,000 medallions. At $1,000,000 a pop, it would not be too terrible to have a one-time buyout paid over several years as a compromise to ending the system.

Maybe, but I can think of better ways to spend $14B.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#78

Post by avoutthere » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

throwaaawayNNV wrote: post #10

I run a business where I hire remote people to do fairly basic tasks. I can pay them cheaply, replace them easily when they don't fit anymore. I am the "platform" and I extract the surplus. So I feel the article has very valid points... and I am on the "ruling capitalists" side of my little world. In order to sleep at night, I am just trying not to be an asshole, and to be decent in the way I pay and behave. But as a…

If your workers are doing "fairly basic tasks", why should you be forced to pay them more than their work is worth?

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#79

Post by occamrazor » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

huffmsa wrote: post #58

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's purely based on artificial scarcity. Which historical never lasts. Never? Money are based on artificial scarcity as well.

Heard of the blockchain recently? Money used to be backed by naturally scarce resources. An ounce of gold is an ounce is an immutable portion of some finite limit of gold until we get alchemy rolling. But yes, fiat currencies based on the promise of government protection are very susceptible to being popped.

Blockchain is based on artificial scarcity too.

Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom

#80

Post by jumbopapa » Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

reading-at-work wrote: post #67

"The reign of the all-powerful capitalist class has returned with a vengeance. The job conditions of working men and women, thrust backward, will not improve until they regain the militancy and rebuild the popular organizations that seized power from the capitalists." ... "The ruling capitalists will be as vicious as they were in the past. Nothing enrages the rich more than having to part with a fraction of their obs…

I agree. The whole article is basically saying that it's unfair that they have competition now. Sure, cab drivers may not be making as good of a living as before, but in general everyone else has gained a lot in regards to lower fares.