Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

slatestarcodex.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 78 posts

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#11

Post by psyc »

_asrm wrote: post #3

So how come not everyone can be a prophet? The Bible tells us why people who wouldn’t listen to the Pharisees listened to Jesus: “He spoke as one who had confidence”. You become a prophet by saying things that you would have to either be a prophet or the most pompous windbag in the Universe to say, then looking a little too wild-eyed for anyone to be comfortable calling you the most pompous windbag in the universe. Y…

Having watched a lot of Peterson's lectures, there's a fact about him which I think might lead a lot of critics to say false things about his level of confidence or arrogance. He speaks in a very confident, impassioned tone, but his actual words are permeated by deep humility.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#12

Post by rusk »

weego wrote: post #10
rusk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has absolutely hit a nerve, or hit a few nerves and done so with great accuracy. You see the thing about Peterson is for whatever reason (could even be just for the purposes of marketing himself), he is very much the controversialist. Time and again he'll say something controversial that he knows will troll a huge audience and then he's always got research and facts to back it up. That his take is often facile isn…

Is it really that controversial though? I'm nearly 40 and I feel like had Jordan Peterson said a lot of what he says now when I was at University it would have been of almost no note whatsoever. It feels more like his statements are elevated to controversy by how polarised, anti-contextual and narrow the margins of contemporary discourse have become rather than him being particularly controversial. "Enforcing equalit…

Like I say, the meat of his ideas are not controversial and actually quite banal. He doesn't really say a lot of things that self-help authors haven't been saying for years.

As you point out the acceptable margins of contemporary discourse are stifling and he purposely sets out to challenge (even "bait") them, and this is what's controversial. I think this is what people like him for, as much as for his actual therapeutic writings.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#13

Post by n4r9 »

weego wrote: post #10
rusk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has absolutely hit a nerve, or hit a few nerves and done so with great accuracy. You see the thing about Peterson is for whatever reason (could even be just for the purposes of marketing himself), he is very much the controversialist. Time and again he'll say something controversial that he knows will troll a huge audience and then he's always got research and facts to back it up. That his take is often facile isn…

Is it really that controversial though? I'm nearly 40 and I feel like had Jordan Peterson said a lot of what he says now when I was at University it would have been of almost no note whatsoever. It feels more like his statements are elevated to controversy by how polarised, anti-contextual and narrow the margins of contemporary discourse have become rather than him being particularly controversial. "Enforcing equalit…

I don't think controversy needs to be modern. To take a more extreme example, it was common just over 100 years ago in the UK to hear that women should not have the vote due to the distinct natures of men and women [0]. Now (for comparison's sake) we hear Peterson talking about how women are naturally more "agreeable" and "self-sacrificing", and that this is vital for the purposes of childcare [1]. I'm not qualified to debate biological determinism, but I do wonder whether statements like this reinforce existing prejudices about the capabilities of both men and women in the workforce. Just recently for example there was an article about how men tend not to work in nurseries, "as parents assume they pose risk to children" [2].

[0] http://www.johndclare.net/Women1_ArgumentsAgainst.htm

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9hcKUUFn5k

[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/03/14/majority-co...

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#14

Post by LMYahooTFY »

rusk wrote: post #2

This is a nice even-handed review. It has been hard to get a clear picture of what Peterson is about and I've had to sift through an awful lot of partisan spite-pieces on both sides to try to get to the bottom of what's going on with him. The following paragraph jumped out at me here: "The politics in this book lean a bit right, but if you think of Peterson as a political commentator you’re missing the point. The sci…

I agree, and to segue a bit, I think it's rather unfortunate that his thoughts on psychology, human behavior, and dealing with tragedy are likely buried beneath partisanship for many people.

He's a career clinical psychologist, father of two, well studied in Jungian archetypes, and bears all the mannerisms of being a folksy father figure. And what do you know, there is some popularity of memes referring to him as a "father of YouTube/Reddit/Internet" and wishful posts for him to be their father along with them.

If there are people listening who have a deficit of such a figure in their lives, perhaps it's good they receive something to compensate for it. That seems more important than the partisan pontificating to me.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#15

Post by rusk »

psyc wrote: post #8
rusk wrote: post #2

This is a nice even-handed review. It has been hard to get a clear picture of what Peterson is about and I've had to sift through an awful lot of partisan spite-pieces on both sides to try to get to the bottom of what's going on with him. The following paragraph jumped out at me here: "The politics in this book lean a bit right, but if you think of Peterson as a political commentator you’re missing the point. The sci…

In order to get a clearer picture of what Peterson is about, I did the unthinkable and watched a lot of his lectures. My opinion is that he's extremely thoughtful, formidable not so much in original thought, but careful synthesis of the many well-known sources he draws on most, and above all worthwhile. That is I think he says a ton of things that are fascinating (as Scott says, kind of in the Gladwell sense) and thi…

I simply don't have time to engage with his lectures. I've seen all the summaries and they're just something I don't need. Thankfully.

What I do see is him continuously parading around the podcast circuit and the polarised discussion online about him.

My gut reaction when I heard him on Joe Rogan was one of disgust, while quietly finding I actually agree with a lot of what he says. He's a guy who has access to "truth" (in the pragmatic, William James sense) that many of his attackers do not.

I don't believe he's on the level of any of those people you've put up him up alongside. I think he draws on their work, mediates and applies their ideas as a clinical psychologist does.

Clever, no doubt, and with a message that is undoubtedly of value to many, and certainly making a lot of money at it too.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#16

Post by rusk »

psyc wrote: post #11
_asrm wrote: post #3

So how come not everyone can be a prophet? The Bible tells us why people who wouldn’t listen to the Pharisees listened to Jesus: “He spoke as one who had confidence”. You become a prophet by saying things that you would have to either be a prophet or the most pompous windbag in the Universe to say, then looking a little too wild-eyed for anyone to be comfortable calling you the most pompous windbag in the universe. Y…

Having watched a lot of Peterson's lectures, there's a fact about him which I think might lead a lot of critics to say false things about his level of confidence or arrogance. He speaks in a very confident, impassioned tone , but his actual words are permeated by deep humility.

Yes, there is a dissonance there that led me to be suspicious at first. It's probably just that he's an introvert who learned "how to speak confidently" from a book or a course or something.

That said, I don't think he comes across as completely intellectually honest in a lot of his interviews. I think that this might be more a product of a lot of the bad faith he's been subjected to than anything intrinsic to his ideas. Though I do think he plays it up a bit now to broaden his reach.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#17

Post by ayayecocojambo »

danielvaughn wrote: post #9

I'll try to explain why I'm enamored with the guy, though I do try and resist it. I've fallen victim to a few cult followings in my past - Ayn Rand in my teens and then Noam Chomsky in my early twenties. So I know the danger signs of falling into an ideological trapping, and I do see that happening with some of Peterson's fans. But I don't care about the fight against "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" or any of his discussion…

This. i felt same. i feel uncomfortable following a passionate thought leader without being able to critize his ideas. for that aim i find myself in thought-provoking arguments with my lgbti activist friends, which was very intellectually-fun times for me.

the thing makes me most uncomfortable about his attitude is what he doesn't say. demonizing 'social justice warriors' and repeating danger of politically correctness is ok, but what criticism about rising nationalism, alt-right movement? this is the elephant in the room he does not talk about, instead he is only focusing on small-minority leftist groups. don't know weather he is biased towards right, or he is trying to get-well with these group. but these are my two cents.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#18

Post by rwj »

psyc wrote: post #8
rusk wrote: post #2

This is a nice even-handed review. It has been hard to get a clear picture of what Peterson is about and I've had to sift through an awful lot of partisan spite-pieces on both sides to try to get to the bottom of what's going on with him. The following paragraph jumped out at me here: "The politics in this book lean a bit right, but if you think of Peterson as a political commentator you’re missing the point. The sci…

In order to get a clearer picture of what Peterson is about, I did the unthinkable and watched a lot of his lectures. My opinion is that he's extremely thoughtful, formidable not so much in original thought, but careful synthesis of the many well-known sources he draws on most, and above all worthwhile. That is I think he says a ton of things that are fascinating (as Scott says, kind of in the Gladwell sense) and thi…

Second this. It it ridiculous how much discussion about Peterson exists, and how little of it actually discusses his ideas.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#19

Post by weego »

rusk wrote: post #12
weego wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that controversial though? I'm nearly 40 and I feel like had Jordan Peterson said a lot of what he says now when I was at University it would have been of almost no note whatsoever. It feels more like his statements are elevated to controversy by how polarised, anti-contextual and narrow the margins of contemporary discourse have become rather than him being particularly controversial. "Enforcing equalit…

Like I say, the meat of his ideas are not controversial and actually quite banal. He doesn't really say a lot of things that self-help authors haven't been saying for years. As you point out the acceptable margins of contemporary discourse are stifling and he purposely sets out to challenge (even "bait") them, and this is what's controversial. I think this is what people like him for, as much as for his actual therap…

"he purposely sets out to challenge (even "bait") them, and this is what's controversial"

You've summed up exactly what I was trying to get to but failed in 10x as many words. Thank you.

Re: Book Review: Twelve Rules for Life

#20

Post by throwawaymanbot »

Peterson is a clinical psychologist. So he knows how to make you believe him, to sympathize with him, to be moved by him, be enamored with him and all this with what other commentators have noted in essence, being bland writings spoon fed to you. Thats kind of dangerous. Dont be fooled. Dont be enamored.
Post reply on HN