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Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

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Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#51

Post by danpalmer »

golergka wrote: post #8

Facebook employees and tech workers in general have a much wider spectrum of opinions that what echo chambers like HN allow. I personally know a lot of Facebook, Apple and Microsoft employees who voted Trump. Palantir employees who are very proud about their jobs and believe that they're making a positive impact on the world. Uber employees who believe that they're engaged in a good fight against regulation and burea…

I see quite a lot of those views here, I'm often surprised at the amount of support they get here.

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#52

Post by matte_black »

danpalmer wrote: post #49
matte_black wrote: post #43

I went out with a girl who works at Facebook (she does software development) and asked her this very question. Basically her response was that the whole incident really isn’t even Facebook’s fault but rather the third party developers. Even though Facebook could have done a better job of protecting data, it’s a waste of time to do so as these companies will always find a way to violate the TOS. It’s a bit like fighti…

I roughly agree with this in terms of the recent events, but Facebook has been doing creepy stuff that I think many people disagree with for a long time, and that seems to be getting worse. Advertisers being able to target so effectively, by salary, by socio-economic status, and by hundreds or even thousands of metrics. I think that's still bad, and I don't think I could work on a product like that.

I’m still amazed that people think really efficient advertising is creepy.

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#53

Post by matte_black »

lordfoom wrote: post #46
matte_black wrote: post #43

I went out with a girl who works at Facebook (she does software development) and asked her this very question. Basically her response was that the whole incident really isn’t even Facebook’s fault but rather the third party developers. Even though Facebook could have done a better job of protecting data, it’s a waste of time to do so as these companies will always find a way to violate the TOS. It’s a bit like fighti…

Sounds like a lot of ego protection going on. "We're the real victims!"

And the critics all sound like short sellers.

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#54

Post by Yoric »

rco8786 wrote: post #34
billysielu wrote: post #4

I'd assume that most employees don't have anything to do with dodgy stuff. Interested in knowing if I'm right or not.

...who is doing it then, if not employees? Truly perplexed by your comment.

I think that the keyword in the parent post is "most".

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#55

Post by Yoric »

jacques_chester wrote: post #28
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #12

Imagine that software development / engineering was a profession along the lines of law or medicine - no one could "practise software" without belonging. Now imagine we are drawing up the ethics code for that profession - is what facebook did something that could reasonably be banned? Is there direct harm involved? In my (very personal) view Facebook is just an example of an externality - this loss of control over da…

The IEEE Computer Society and ACM jointly adopted just such a code of ethics. https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics None of it gives Facebook engineers any comfort. They are responsible for the fruits of their efforts. Recent revelations are of degree , not kind . The consequences of engineering work were reasonably foreseeable and the consequences were not at arm's length. Facebook's business model h…

> I am unsympathetic to anyone at Facebook feeling moral disquiet. I think you know what you ought to do.

I don't work at Facebook and I actually don't know what Facebook employees ought to do, but I'm curious to know what you think about that.

Resign? Blow the whistle (to a society that really, really didn't seem to care until last week)? Try and find ways to put pressure the non-engineers in charge of product decision to do something? Unionize? Something else entirely?

Also, are you talking about all Facebook engineers or only some? Do you put those who work on React, Flow, Haxl, Hack, ReasonML, Mercurial, Occulus, etc. in the same basket?

Edit: Thanks for the link. Good read.

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#56

Post by golergka »

pavlov wrote: post #24
knowThySelfx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What will happen if you don't tow the line? Will there be tolerance?

You’ll be patiently explained how your genetic layout or gender makes it harder for you to understand things. You’ll even get a printout of that personalized 10-page memo so you can study it at home.

This thread is exactly what I'm talking about.

Making fun of "the other side" through strawmen and irony will earn you social points among people with the same views, of course. meanwhile, people that you make fun of will think before venting their opinions the next time among you or on this platform in general.

What it will not accomplish, though, is changing anybody's minds. Just make the forum more of an echo chamber which creates an illusion of political consensus.

Do you want to leave in an illusion? Do you think that bullying people of opposite political opinions into shutting up helps your political agenda in any way? Or, may be, you're setting yourself up for another big surprise come next election?

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#57

Post by pavlov »

dingo_bat wrote: post #37
pavlov wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe more like: "If we don't send someone to sneak around our customers' houses looking for clues of what they might buy, one of our competitors would do the same! Besides, it's the customer's fault if they leave the door unlocked."

> Besides, it's the customer's fault if they leave the door unlocked." More like: > Besides, it's the customer's fault if invite us inside their home and willingly hand over the keys to the cupboards.

Both Android and Facebook use a passive security model. They didn’t ask for permission, but buried it in small print and pretended that’s good enough.

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#58

Post by pavlov »

golergka wrote: post #56
pavlov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll be patiently explained how your genetic layout or gender makes it harder for you to understand things. You’ll even get a printout of that personalized 10-page memo so you can study it at home.

This thread is exactly what I'm talking about. Making fun of "the other side" through strawmen and irony will earn you social points among people with the same views, of course. meanwhile, people that you make fun of will think before venting their opinions the next time among you or on this platform in general. What it will not accomplish, though, is changing anybody's minds. Just make the forum more of an echo cham…

You were talking about people who work at Palantir and Uber. They are in a position of power relative to 99% of the population. These are not the “forgotten men” of Trumpist rhetoric.

Making fun of their self-victimization is not bullying either. Do you really think Palantir employees are a group that needs to be protected from semianonymous Internet comments?

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#59

Post by phunehehe0 »

jacques_chester wrote: post #21
ex3ndr wrote: post #7

This was my first question at job interview to Facebook. Luckily i got an indian developer and i knew about how aggressive facebook in his home country (does everybody remembers free basics?) and i asked about what he thinks. Answer was simple - this is a form of a competition. I think "competition" can easily justify doing shady things - any of your competitors eventually will do the same and because of this there a…

Two wrongs don't make a right. "Aw, but everyone else is doing it!" has never been the basis of a respectable system of morality. It's playground ethics.

It took me a while to find this fallacious argument is called "argumentum ad populum".

Re: Ask HN: What do Facebook employees think about their company?

#60

Post by lifeisstillgood »

jacques_chester wrote: post #28
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #12

Imagine that software development / engineering was a profession along the lines of law or medicine - no one could "practise software" without belonging. Now imagine we are drawing up the ethics code for that profession - is what facebook did something that could reasonably be banned? Is there direct harm involved? In my (very personal) view Facebook is just an example of an externality - this loss of control over da…

The IEEE Computer Society and ACM jointly adopted just such a code of ethics. https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics None of it gives Facebook engineers any comfort. They are responsible for the fruits of their efforts. Recent revelations are of degree , not kind . The consequences of engineering work were reasonably foreseeable and the consequences were not at arm's length. Facebook's business model h…

I am dubious about the value of a "public interest" clause as the basis for everything - that tends to be "whatever we agree post-hoc".

Look at medical ethics ideas of "do no harm" - or the more modern interpretation "do more good than harm"

It is perfectly arguable that Facebook has been doing more good than harm. And that is not something one should ban under a code of ethics.

NB I personally do not think that Facebook's actions have been correct, or worthy or defensible. They have hoovered up everything and left it lying around for anyone to collect - it breaks every Data protection rule set since the 1980s (due care etc). They can and will pay at some point down the line.

But data is like ... oil. It has massive externality costs, but wow has society benefited. From the data footprints we leave we can (if it is well managed(!)) expect improved medical research, improved mental well being, reduction in crime, improved trade, greater econmic equality. Yes there will be costs. And we need to manage those as only externalities can be managed. But the mass collection and processing of our PII data is not just negative cost.

Edit just to be clear this is not an attempt to justify ends with means, or defend facebooks actions - but to note that just because JP Getty was unethical it did not stop ambulances getting petrol engines, generators lighting hospitals and plastics encasing artificial hips.

It's complicated.

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