Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Being frugal is for the rich

theoutline.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 305 posts

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#11

Post by joefourier »

American salaries are difficult to make sense of from a European perspective. The referenced average salary of $36,000/year for millennials with only a high-school diploma would be a normal entry-level salary for a software engineer in most of Western Europe, and a very good salary for experienced engineers in Eastern Europe.

Tax burden is higher here as well, and while the cost of housing is exorbitant many parts of the US, so it is in cities like Dublin, London and Paris, but without the salary adjustments you see in San Francisco, New York, etc.

This makes it difficult to understand why frugality is impossible for an American making triple the average salary of an average Czech or Croatian.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#12

Post by xboxnolifes »

duxup wrote: post #5
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

I think the title refers more to the idea that those folks selling this frugality made plenty of money already and that financial freedom is what helped them establish their lifestyle... not the frugality they sell.

The audience that these types of blog posts are targeting aren't those of who are stuck making minimum wage, but instead those who are fairly well off but think they aren't because they keep spending yearly costs on $1000 phones, 5+ subscription services, large housing costs, eating out multiple times per week, etc.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#13

Post by neogodless »

Over the past few weeks, a long-running thread has been building on the Mr. Money Mustache forums at https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what'...

(Mr. Money Mustache isn't too different from the FrugalWoods. They never made quite so much money, but they did have good careers. Still, there's a similar message to be heard.)

I get that the high income and extravagant Vermont estate are a turn off for median-and-below earners, but that doesn't mean you have to have their income to benefit from their frugality. After all, MMM and FW have the time to write about frugality because of their financial independence. But they are able to live the lives they want due to the choices they made with their money.

It isn't hard to find counter-examples. How often do you hear of people that make $300k/year, yet fail to accumulate wealth and achieve financial independence? How often do they continue to be held to wage slavery to support their chosen lifestyle?

Anyway, while you can't save money by not painting your kitchen, you can improve upon your self-sufficiency, and you can certainly become more mindful of your values and the choices you make with your money. It takes education (self or otherwise), and financial bloggers can serve as source of education. But you still have to learn how to filter and apply knowledge to your own situation. You can't pluck fruit from an orchard in your 600 sq. ft. apartment, but you can track your spending, and figure out where money is being spent on things that don't line up with your values and long-term goals.

The important thing is to figure out what you can do to improve your situation. Complaining about people being more successful than you doesn't improve your situation. (I do get that income inequality is a whole other issue to address, but I think that muddies this specific message.)

Remember that you can probably find ways to be more frugal and mindful, and know that doing so alone will not get you a 66-acre homestead at the age of 30, but it can improve your life and get you to your goals faster.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#14

Post by malvosenior »

qntty wrote: post #7
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

I think there’s real value in spreading the message of thrift. The 20th century saw a massive build up of the consumerist lifestyle. It’s going to take a lot of work to back that out, so we might as well start now.

I’ve personally seen people with high five figure student debt go on regular international trips. These people more or less live paycheck to paycheck and save specifically for travel (or use credit cards — if they can get them).

Educating people as to why that might be a bad idea and creating a supportive culture of anti-consumerism seems like a good idea. Sure there are policy decisions at play too, but being “frugal” can hardly hurt.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#15

Post by aschearer »

anigbrowl wrote: post #6
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

You're missing the point. The 'frugal culture' is selling the idea that this is the road to economic self-sufficiency while omitting or glossing over other significant information, like having a very healthy income stream to begin with. If you're poor, being frugal is very unlikely to lift you out of poverty. That doesn't mean frugality is bad, but that marketing is as the key to financial stability is deceptive.

Sure, but are people like the ones in this article or MMM seriously advocating that their philosophy will solve poverty? It's always struck me as middle or even upper middle class people revolting against over consumption and debt. Insofar as that's the case it seems like a positive development. And I don't see why we can't do two things at once, address inequality and poverty and reform out-of-control consumerism.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#16

Post by throwaway84742 »

qntty wrote: post #7
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

Most young people do need to be more thoughtful about their money, though. And the economy as a whole is, by multiple different metrics, the best it’s ever been. It’s just that this greatness needs to be spread a bit wider. In the capitalist system with a labor market as tight as we’ve ever seen it this is addressed by getting another job for more money. Now is a good time to do it. You are responsible for your own success.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#17

Post by jogjayr »

duxup wrote: post #5
aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

I think the title refers more to the idea that those folks selling this frugality made plenty of money already and that financial freedom is what helped them establish their lifestyle... not the frugality they sell.

But tons of folks working high-paying jobs don't manage to establish a lifestyle like the Frugalwoods. There's a reason phrases like "keeping up with the Joneses" exist. It's how you end up with "out-of-touch" articles about how a $250k annual income is barely middle-class in NYC or the Bay Area.

Can't we focus on the message instead of the messenger? Or stop assuming that the message is for Millennials alone?

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#18

Post by notyourwork »

aschearer wrote: post #3

The title here seems very inflammatory. The article questions whether some actions (e.g. painting your own home instead of hiring someone to do it) are truly frugal. It goes on to say that the philosophy of frugality is a handmaiden for wealthy. Maybe so, but why would we discourage good spending habits? For example, choosing to eat one or more meals out each day versus bulk cooking is an option available to most peo…

People want what they can't have which I don't think will ever dissolve. Therefore, the idea that advertising has any bearing on this is flawed.

Keeping up with the joneses is less about having the same thing and more about having the joneses quality of life. They aren't the same if you look at them.

Having a fancy car for example is a status symbol, what is the status? The status is that this car has nicer features, butt warmers, more comfortable seating, better safety. Taking that status symbol a step further, I can deduce that if the joneses can afford that fancy car they also have other fancy things.

Most reduce this logic down to the following: The more individual items I have that the joneses have the closer I'll be to their quality of life.

I think this is a really interesting dynamic though because the more money I make I am not proportionally happier. In fact, my happiness stopped increasing with salary increases the moment I was able to afford bills and have leftover for savings. Since than my salary has grown many times over and I am still the same person I was fresh out of college getting by. My wife and I are still the same couple, we are no happier with the weather we have achieved over the years.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#19

Post by tjpaudio »

joefourier wrote: post #11

American salaries are difficult to make sense of from a European perspective. The referenced average salary of $36,000/year for millennials with only a high-school diploma would be a normal entry-level salary for a software engineer in most of Western Europe, and a very good salary for experienced engineers in Eastern Europe. Tax burden is higher here as well, and while the cost of housing is exorbitant many parts of…

City-based salary adjustments are really something only educated professionals get, low-wage earners are screwed in big cities. I think also it will shock you how much every day items are compared to Europe. For one, public transportation is not available to most of America. So you have to have a car and car insurance, thats hundreds of dollars more per month right there. Cellphone service costs 3x as much as anywhere in Europe. And yes, the housing is absurd as a percentage of wages compare the the EU. Health insurance is really expensive as well; the employee's contribution to a company sponsored health plan is often as much as 20% of a minimum wage workers wage.

Re: Being frugal is for the rich

#20

Post by qntty »

malvosenior wrote: post #14
qntty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is the real motive behind the article: But here’s the thing. Regardless of intent, these Millennials are telling an older generation of elite Americans — the very people whose policies and financial decisions kneecapped the economy — what they want to hear: that everything is more or less okay, and young people just need to be more thoughtful about their money. And that’s a shitty idea to perpetuate. Bec…

I think there’s real value in spreading the message of thrift. The 20th century saw a massive build up of the consumerist lifestyle. It’s going to take a lot of work to back that out, so we might as well start now. I’ve personally seen people with high five figure student debt go on regular international trips. These people more or less live paycheck to paycheck and save specifically for travel (or use credit cards —…

No doubt. Again: the tips are great and many people would do well to listen to them. However, the larger question of the place that these tips have in the story that we tell ourselves about society is still an open question. There are multiple ways to place these tips in a larger context while still following them and regarding them as worthwhile. It's important to understand that there is a choice to be made here about the story we tell ourselves.
Post reply on HN