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Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

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Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#101
post #18

I've been using Oni for the last few weeks as my daily driver (I liked it so much I signed up as a monthly sponsor), and here's my take on it: It's a fairly new project, but it's under _very_ active development. There's an excellent community building around it and I think we will be seeing some really great progress over the next year. That said, it isn't anywhere close to feature parity with vscode, but the value p…

Urgh, this is so infuriating. Oni looks fantastic if it can deliver on what it does, but the infuriating part really is VSCode in all this. Code is a great editor/IDE and has a huge amount of development backing and now a pretty large market share as well, which means inertia. But the vim bindings for it are just garbage . They are slow, make the editor feel sluggish, they don't work "quite right", etc. No kidding th…

I feel your pain :)

I have been keeping Oni and VSCode open while I work so I can use Oni for editing and VSCode for the nice diffs and replace in project functionality.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#102
post #2

Looks great. Two questions: 1. I wonder though why you/team didn't opt for extending the vim emulation - via a plugin - on VS Code. Did the exposed API limit you from doing so? Edit: Having used the extensions of VSCode, I am wondering if that is the case. 2. Does it support installation of sublime/atom/vscode plugins?

As a developer of the VSCodeVim plugin, Oni is a great inspiration and we are hoping they pave the way for the Neovim API (which is starting to mature). We have started using neovim for a few things, the command line for example. So while we have started getting our feet wet, hopefully something like Oni (or Oni) replaces us...soon :)

Thanks xconverge, it's great to hear from you and appreciate the kind words! I'm a big fan of the work you're doing as well - really impressed with the VSCodeVim plugin.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#103
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I prefer real native applications and like hating on electron, I have to give it some credit. It is not just chromium, it is chromium+nodejs and all the stuff that comes with it. The answer to "would it be feasible/easy to port an Electron app to a pure browser app" is no. Unless all of the communication between the frontend part and the native tooling is done via sockets. I agree that native apps should b…

> Unless all of the communication between the frontend part and the native tooling is done via sockets. Admittedly I have not developed any Electron apps, but I have developed serious web apps and worked a little bit with NodeJS also. Why don’t people do exactly that when they write their code — make all communication happen over regular HTTP and websockets?

Some data is not suited to go through asynchronous streams with a lot of parsing. At some point I needed to pass real-time eeg data to an application and we were exploring Cordova as an option. The jitter and absurd latency (over 15ms) was a non-starter. Things might have gone better but not everything can be solved by immutable data structures.

For comparison, the same data transfer using Electron native plugin took well under 1ms.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#104
post #97
post #18

I've been using Oni for the last few weeks as my daily driver (I liked it so much I signed up as a monthly sponsor), and here's my take on it: It's a fairly new project, but it's under _very_ active development. There's an excellent community building around it and I think we will be seeing some really great progress over the next year. That said, it isn't anywhere close to feature parity with vscode, but the value p…

> the value proposition is: neovim, with vscode compatible snippets and typescript-language-server-driven autocomplete (also works with vanilla JS) out of the box How's that compare to emacs? It sounds like it can be extended with Vimscript or JavaScript? Emacs has several snippet/templating options, and of course it also has several autocomplete options. > The bonus value proposition is: since it is a GUI wrapper ar…

I think comparing it to emacs is kind of missing the point; Oni is primarily targeting two groups of users: long time vim users who want to spend less time configuring plugins and who want some of the modern features that newer IDEs provide; and users of said IDEs who want to experiment with vim but find the learning curve to be a little too steep.

> Emacs has several snippet/templating options, and of course it also has several autocomplete options.

So does vanilla vim, and you can script vim or emacs to do _anything_, but not everybody wants to put that kind of effort into extending their text editor.

> Emacs has had a X GUI for about 25 years (and of course vim has had various GUIs, too — although I think less powerful & extensible).

That's true, and those are great bits of kit, but there's always room for something new, right? :)

> Rather than using Electron and JavaScript and Vimscript and an ancient C core...

Oni is built on top of neovim, which is a modern C core and very nice from what I've heard. :) Also, I don't think Oni would be as far along as it is today if the creator had used native languages and frameworks; at least it wouldn't be available on my mac because IIRC he is primarily a windows user. :D

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#105
post #97
post #18

I've been using Oni for the last few weeks as my daily driver (I liked it so much I signed up as a monthly sponsor), and here's my take on it: It's a fairly new project, but it's under _very_ active development. There's an excellent community building around it and I think we will be seeing some really great progress over the next year. That said, it isn't anywhere close to feature parity with vscode, but the value p…

> the value proposition is: neovim, with vscode compatible snippets and typescript-language-server-driven autocomplete (also works with vanilla JS) out of the box How's that compare to emacs? It sounds like it can be extended with Vimscript or JavaScript? Emacs has several snippet/templating options, and of course it also has several autocomplete options. > The bonus value proposition is: since it is a GUI wrapper ar…

Maintainer here. Thank you for the thoughtful and articulate feedback! I appreciate you sharing your perspective and I'll give you some of my thoughts.

> How's that compare to emacs? It sounds like it can be extended with Vimscript or JavaScript? Emacs has several snippet/templating options, and of course it also has several autocomplete options.

Every editor is an exercise in trade-offs. Emacs, Vim, VSCode, Sublime, Atom - what defines them is their trade-offs and execution. The strength that modern editors have is that you get a lot working out of-the-box - when I boot up Emacs on Windows (or gVim for that matter), I get a (subjectively) ugly UI with no language support. That's not to say I can't configure it to look and function beautifully - but the trend with the modern editors like Atom & VSCode is to have an 'it just works' mentality. If you have a finely-honed Emacs config, sure, there might not be appreciable benefits for you. But a new user may not want to distill the several snippet/templating options.

I'd compare it to a car - a passionate driver might buy a kit car and finely hone the transmission, handling, etc. They probably won't be happy with the automatic transmission they find in a car at the Nissan dealership... But the automatic transmission ends up being convenient enough for a lot of people.

> I really don't understand what the value proposition is here. Rather than using Electron and JavaScript and Vimscript and an ancient C core, why not use X/Cocoa/WinAPI, elisp & a relatively thin C VM?

The reason I open-sourced the project was because I wanted help developing it. That's part of the joy of open source. And when you look at technology trends, like the [StackOverflow Developer Survey](https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018#technology), if I want others to help me, it makes sense to use the most popular technology today.

> From my point of view, all of these huge environments built atop vi are simply reinventing emacs, poorly — and worse, they're destroying the wonderful things I always loved & respected about vi!

Yes, I think we have two different perspectives here, and that's okay. What I love about vi & vim is the modal editing aspect - I think the composable, modal language is a beautiful and efficient way to manipulate text. That's the piece that's important to me.

> Certainly, folks should be free to follow their bliss. I don't really begrudge the Oni guys their project (although I'd obviously love it if they spent that energy & brilliance a little further up the stack, e.g. by making a great text/GUI browser mode for emacs) — I just don't get it.

Cheers :) FYI, our 'editor' implementation is extensible, so it doesn't preclude having another sort of driver - it'd be technically feasible to plug something else in there, too (in fact, we have some pure javascript 'editors' that we use as test cases). Not inconceivable that someone could drop-in an editor that talks to Emacs, Xi, etc.

But at the end of the day, I recognize that the trade-offs we make for Oni are only going to appeal to a niche of users. Having new editors exploring different possibilities can help the whole ecosystem, even if it doesn't directly target your niche - as other editors get inspired by the 'good parts' - and at the end of the day we all end up with better tools.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#106
post #18

I've been using Oni for the last few weeks as my daily driver (I liked it so much I signed up as a monthly sponsor), and here's my take on it: It's a fairly new project, but it's under _very_ active development. There's an excellent community building around it and I think we will be seeing some really great progress over the next year. That said, it isn't anywhere close to feature parity with vscode, but the value p…

Urgh, this is so infuriating. Oni looks fantastic if it can deliver on what it does, but the infuriating part really is VSCode in all this. Code is a great editor/IDE and has a huge amount of development backing and now a pretty large market share as well, which means inertia. But the vim bindings for it are just garbage . They are slow, make the editor feel sluggish, they don't work "quite right", etc. No kidding th…

VSCodeVIM has neovim support too https://github.com/VSCodeVim/Vim/issues/1735. It's still an experimental feature though.

Also neovim rewrite: https://github.com/Chillee/VSCodeNeovim

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urgh, this is so infuriating. Oni looks fantastic if it can deliver on what it does, but the infuriating part really is VSCode in all this. Code is a great editor/IDE and has a huge amount of development backing and now a pretty large market share as well, which means inertia. But the vim bindings for it are just garbage . They are slow, make the editor feel sluggish, they don't work "quite right", etc. No kidding th…

How does VSCode Vim bindings compare to Vintage mode in Sublime? I like the idea of Oni, but I also love that Sublime is native (I'm already running FF Quantum, I can't burn too much more battery!). I know Sublime's Vim keybindings aren't that complete.

I've found VSCode Vim bindings _really_ buggy. Sometimes non-responsive to the escape key until I press it a few times, sometimes it will kill highlighting of code blocks until I switch modes, sometimes enters `` in the source code instead of tab when I press the tab button. I still use it, because I've used modal editors for so long and I like everything else about VSCode, but the vim bindings are my biggest point of frustration with it.

Sublime's vintage mode is, in my experience, light years better, if not in completeness, at least in stability.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#108

Related projects — https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Related-projects

There are many projects on that list, if you want a fast native app I would recommend:

* neovim-gtk for Linux: supports using a file tree, tabs, a nice open dialogue menu for recent files, support for working with Plug for new plug-ins.

* VimR on Mac OS: has a file tree, buffer menu, and support for HTML/Markdown Preview.

Re: Oni: Modern Modal Editing – Powered by Neovim

#110
post #79

I've been very happy with gvim for many years, so I don't think I will change any time soon (although Emacs + evil is very sweet too, specially writing Clojure). But there's one thing I can't really understand and, for me at least, is not an advantage working with code: why using tabs? It feels like an anti-pattern when I'm using (g)vim, I use buffers and I split in few windows, list buffers, change buffer, etc; and…

gt still works in Oni. You can also h over to file explorer.

I use tabs in vim because opening more than 2 buffers on my laptop gets really crowded.

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