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Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

nytimes.com

71–80 of 274 posts

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FWIW, as a Facebook engineer you have a ton of trainings on how to handle data privacy. And not only is every place where you can touch data actively logged/audited/monitored (this includes DB reads from code, admin tools, etc.), but to access any data you have to explicitly request permission for that specific data. Really? So are stories like [1] complete lies? Or does someone inside just blindly grant these "exp…

You request access, and justify it with something like "I need it to debug issue #123". Someone manually oks/disallows it, and there's asynchronous reviews of these requests to double check. My guess is the intern lied about what they're using it for. How else would you suggest to do privacy checks like these?

> You request access, and justify it with something like "I need it to debug issue #123". Someone manually oks/disallows it, and there's asynchronous reviews of these requests to double check. My guess is the intern lied about what they're using it for.

OK so an insider can just lie and access whatever they want. Heck, they can even tell the truth! Just find a bug that's exhibited in a particular profile and use that as an excuse to look at the profile.

> How else would you suggest to do privacy checks like these?

Whatever Google does. I don't know the details. But, for starters, my understanding is that their interns generally can't do what you just described, so fixing that would be one obvious step forward.

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#72
post #41
post #10

Facebook is an enabler for individuals to successfully undermine our democratic mechanisms. It shouldn't feel nice to work for a company that has to explain itself in front of the government. The employees of Facebook should be aware of what monster they are building.

No they’re not. They’re in denial. I used to work there as an intern, so I get a front row seat to how a lot of employees are reacting. The word I would use is: indignation. I’ve seen this us-against-them mentality play out elsewhere in various toxic cult-like organizational cultures. The NSA was a great public example of just how manifestly horrifying things can get with tens to hundreds of decent people willfully p…

There is a difference with the NSA, I remember they recruited pretty heavily on our college campus and you are presented with the chance to work for and defend your country with your brainpower ostensibly. Then we throw in this war on "terror" and for me it seems like the questions and answers for an employee at the NSA would be much harder than for someone at a private company where it's much easier to just quit and walk away (if one were not indoctrinated as you describe.)

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#73
post #15
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most companies have pretty strict internal controls for this sort of thing This does not ring true to me at all.

It was true at Google. It's certainly true at financial institutions. I dunno about Amazon. I'm not sure what other comparisons would be relevant here. EDIT/NOTE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675493

> It's certainly true at financial institutions

It's certainly not true at financial institutions. By financial institutions I mean Fortune 100 financial institutions, as well as smaller financial institutions.

If by "pretty strict internal controls" you mean they can, like Prince Potemkin, point to such things existing in some chimeric form, then yes, I suppose you are right. But in any real sense, no, there are no effective controls in the real world.

About 25 years ago I assumed it was early days for a lot of these things and they would sooner or later be closed up, but they haven't been. Things are wide open - as the recent Facebook/Analytics things have shown. In a very small and indirect way at that.

The first major book on this broad subject was Donn Parker's "Crime by Computer" published in 1976. The book opens by saying that a company's biggest enemies in terms of computer crime is its own employees. This is still true 40+ years later - the biggest enemy of the people who own companies are the people who do the work at them.

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#74

Can someone explain to me why the Cambridge Analytica story is making people so much angrier than the later revelation that Facebook was scraping call+text info? That seems to be the larger problem to me. Somewhere at Facebook there is a team of people who wrote software to scrape, store and analyze the personal call+text data that users didn't explicitly mean to give to Facebook. The data that Cambridge Analytica at…

Because people are really, really bad at understanding threats that have vague, uncertain consequences. For the last 15 years, trying to get people to seriously worry about privacy has had about as much success as getting them to worry about climate change: they claim to care, but their revealed preferences tell a different story. The problem is that the downsides are uncertain and in the future, whereas the upsides are immediate and certain. Our ape brains are horrible at evaluating tradeoffs of this kind.

But the flip side to this is why the CA story has blown up: for once, the consequences— "CA got Trump elected!"— are immediate and graspable, in a way that "Facebook is scraping your text info" is not (even if it's probably not true). When the effects are right in your face and not time-delayed, people sit up and pay attention.

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#75
Facebook's Board of Directors is a remarkable collection of silent-yet-complicit heavyweights:

-Marc Andreessen;

-Erskine Bowles ("President Emeritus of the University of North Carolina" and "White House Chief of Staff from 1996 to 1998");

-Ken Chenault ("Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of American Express Company");

-Susan Desmond-Hellmann ("Chief Executive Officer of The Gates Foundation" and former "Chancellor at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) from 2009 to 2014");

-Reed Hastings ("Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the board of directors of Netflix");

-Jan Koum ("co-founder and CEO of WhatsApp"); and

-Peter Thiel [1].

Might not be a bad idea to pen a letter to their Board [2] with your state attorney general [3] and perhaps a U.S. Senator [4] copied.

[1] https://investor.fb.com/corporate-governance/default.aspx

[2] https://investor.fb.com/corporate-governance/?section=contac...

[3] http://naag.org/naag/attorneys-general/whos-my-ag.php

[4] https://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_...

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#76
post #8

Zuckerberg should resign at this moment. Facebook needs new leadership if it wants to change the way it has been operating.

Nah. In a week all of this will be forgotten (do you still remember the helicopter in the river, and the bridge that collapsed?). You and me and a few more people will remember, but we all already know that everything that is posted privately on Facebook will be leaked sooner or later.

I even expect to see a few angry post from people that decided to delete their account now, and when they tried to undelete the account after a few weeks they surprisingly discover that all the old information was missing and Facebook can't recover it because it is deleted.

fake quote > If they used Windows instead of Linux, they could have send the account to the Recycler Bin, and recover it now.

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#77
post #40

I respect Facebook and their engineering chops as much as the next person, they are truly world class programmers, but how the holy hell is everyone daydreaming that they don’t work for an advertising company? You sell and use people’s data to get money: this is the business plan. Full stop. Connecting people can definitely be lucrative and useful in other ways but facebooks particular implementation is impression ba…

not too long ago the emphasis was on whether Facebook is a -media- or a -tech- company. Media companies have more responsibility to censor content then tech companies do.

Interesting how quickly the narrative changes.

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#78

Facebook's Board of Directors is a remarkable collection of silent-yet-complicit heavyweights: -Marc Andreessen; -Erskine Bowles ("President Emeritus of the University of North Carolina" and "White House Chief of Staff from 1996 to 1998"); -Ken Chenault ("Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of American Express Company"); -Susan Desmond-Hellmann ("Chief Executive Officer of The Gates Foundation" and former "Chancello…

probably because speaking out would cause more trouble than its worth. i recall an Uber director decided to open his mouth during the incidents of last year...

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#79
post #2

I feel like someone should also give Zuckerberg the memo that it's only a matter of time before an insider also goes rogue and abuses data access (edit: or otherwise; see below). Facebook fundamentally seems to trust itself way too much, and it worries me that it thinks the only threats are external entities... to me, this is another silently ticking time bomb. EDIT: And don't forget that going rogue is just one scen…

"Our efforts to protect our company data or the information we receive may also be unsuccessful due to software bugs or other technical malfunctions, employee error or malfeasance, government surveillance, or other factors.

"In addition, third parties may attempt to fraudulently induce employees or users to disclose information in order to gain access to our data or our users' data."

"Although we have developed systems and processes that are designed to protect our data and user data and to prevent data loss and other security breaches, we cannot assure you that such measures will provide absolute security."

"In addition, some of our developers or other partners, such as those that help us measure the effectiveness of ads, may receive or store information provided by us or by our users through mobile or web applications integrated with Facebook. We provide limited information to such third parties based on the scope of services provided to us. However, if these third parties or developers fail to adopt or adhere to adequate data security practices, or in the event of a breach of their networks, our data or our users' data may be improperly accessed, used, or disclosed."

Source: MD&A, 2015 Facebook annual report

Re: Zuckerberg Takes Steps to Calm Facebook Employees

#80

Facebook's Board of Directors is a remarkable collection of silent-yet-complicit heavyweights: -Marc Andreessen; -Erskine Bowles ("President Emeritus of the University of North Carolina" and "White House Chief of Staff from 1996 to 1998"); -Ken Chenault ("Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of American Express Company"); -Susan Desmond-Hellmann ("Chief Executive Officer of The Gates Foundation" and former "Chancello…

Doesn't Zuckerberg have full control of the board?
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