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Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

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Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#41
My opinion is we need to have more variety of interview options. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and any given Dev has to have some kind of idea of what they excel at. Some people are really good at tough algorithms.

I recently went through a job search and I ended some coding tests because they took too much time and the questions I was asked seemed more like a random candidate filter rather than a test of developer knowledge.

My personal opinion is to make an easy coding exam similar to triplebyte or other apply once talk to many companies and randomly accept a portion of candidates.

That way people will know it's not their skill and can optimize for market exposure rather than arbitrary coding problems.

Then have an in person where you see if communication can happen. Ask them to walk you through the code used on the entrance test.

Can the industry move towards something like match day for doctors, but more ongoing?

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#42

We absolutely should. Here's what I'm doing to help change it: I'm launching a new venture that will try to help connect great engineers with great companies. Companies with great teams, competitive benefits, and the belief that engineers shouldn't have to go through bullshit interview practices and shouldn't have to study 150 hours for a round of interviews. The flow is pretty simple: a quick Skype/Hang out call to…

Here is idea for you, aspiring recruiter - you want great engineers to interview? Pay them $150/hour to work on your github repo that you want to use in interview. Everyone wins - engineers don’t get their time wasted, and interviewing companies are quite interested in not to waste theirs.

I addressed this in another comment, but just to respond to you: we've done test interviews where we paid candidates $80 and hour. The expense works into our model so I would anticipate seeing some form of that in the future.

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#43

We absolutely should. Here's what I'm doing to help change it: I'm launching a new venture that will try to help connect great engineers with great companies. Companies with great teams, competitive benefits, and the belief that engineers shouldn't have to go through bullshit interview practices and shouldn't have to study 150 hours for a round of interviews. The flow is pretty simple: a quick Skype/Hang out call to…

Love this, although not living in that area.

Just to chime in: I'm a PhD student in CS/machine learning with a competitive enough CV to interview anywhere, and I have gone through the motions at many companies previously (e.g. for interning), and there is nothing I hate more than coding interviews.

It literally makes me hate companies, it turns me off from interviewing at a place, and it makes me deeply resent them even if I get an offer after a ridiculous series of interviews.

After you have subjected me to a terrible/demeaning interview process, I might still work for you, but I will never be a loyal or feel any inclination to contribute more than I need for personal gain, because you have established that nature of the relationship via the interview. Sorry for the rant.

I hope you succeed, so very much.

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#44
post #2

It's entirely bullshit, and I regret being on both sides. I used to do coding screens, but I feel like some moderate knowledge of syntax and a decent education is enough to skip the rest. The whole cargo cult of coding screens came up during the 00's when Google made it look important, and you're correct that it's largely an exercise to convince the team that they're special. Software engineering is the science of av…

At my work we give coding exercises to interviewees with screen-sharing and give candidates lots of time and as much interaction as they want. The questions we pose are simple and do not require years of algorithmic experience and generally don't involve coding that couldn't be done by somebody with a couple of introductory software courses. Candidates choose their own programming language and environment.

The problems can be solved naively with a straightforward solution, or much more optimally after some further considerations.

The approach is absolutely not b.s., and we observe:

* some candidates completely misunderstand the very straightforward problems posed and their solution has no hope of addressing the issue

* some candidates have a rough idea but can't write the two nested for-loops required, for example, for the naive solution to one particular problem

* some candidates don't ask for clarification or confirmation that they understand the problem correctly even when they'd benefit -- others do and make better progress

* some candidates don't consider the full range of allowed possible inputs for the problem statement and assume the happy path always ... this is plenty forgivable, but when this is suggested or pointed out, some candidates find an easy way to resolve, others jump through interminable hoops to address, and others have deficit in communication that doesn't let them discuss the issue

* when discussing perceived flaws in implementations, some understand the language used to discuss software, others have a hard time communicating or answering questions about their implementations -- e.g., when one candidate wrote a recursive function all of whose branches ended up calling the same function recursively and we asked "when will your recursive function ever stop?" in many forms, they could not see or understand the intent of our question

* some candidates misunderstand writing a solution addressing a particular test case vs a general solution

* a few candidates are able to see the more optimal solution and write a good second algorithm based on that approach

* very few candidates resort to stepping through code in their IDE, unfortunately, to see or demonstrate what happens

We've eliminated many candidates we feel would have been a poor match based on inability to understand requirements, consider all possible input situations, inability to write naive algorithms, inability to communicate effectively about interview problems. ( Note that we also let candidates continue addressing the problem as "take-home" after the interview if they show promise. )

One junior candidate we just recently hired in a South Asia office did quite well on the algorithms portion, but unfortunately did not know Linux/UNIX/macOS command-line ... and assumed she was going to fail that portion of the interview -- she'd worked only in Windows contexts before. We had pointed her to a Linux-in-the-browser site and we just asked her to Google/search for the solutions to the various fairly basic operations we asked her to perform on the command-line -- she was surprised we'd let her do that. She struggled through and found solutions, and that's exactly what we wanted to see. There's nothing that exposes a candidate's suitability more than an open environment with a problem to solve and opportunity to discuss.

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#45

We absolutely should. Here's what I'm doing to help change it: I'm launching a new venture that will try to help connect great engineers with great companies. Companies with great teams, competitive benefits, and the belief that engineers shouldn't have to go through bullshit interview practices and shouldn't have to study 150 hours for a round of interviews. The flow is pretty simple: a quick Skype/Hang out call to…

> In that git repo is a project with real code and a few features/bug fixes for you to implement. Is this from you or from the company? If it’s from you what kind of project is it? Web development? It seems like the technology stacks are so diverse it’s hard to give a coding test that’s applicable to a wide range of companies.

We have a library of these projects. We add more all the time. We built the first set. Now we're paying engineers to build these based on really interesting problems they've solved in their careers.

We don't reuse the projects across different stacks. We might borrow some of the underlying themes or principles, but they're different projects for different stacks, each written by somebody with very precise domain expertise.

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#46
post #30

I've been through and used several different styles of interview and the one that stands out as being "the best" at predicting whether a person will fit on the team is just to bring them in and work with them for a day on your actual product 1) You don't do problems you've already solved that they have to come up with same answer to. 2) You don't do algorithm / problem testing that they're never going to use on the j…

I'm assuming you pay a fair rate for that day of work?

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#48
My impression of the big 4 interview process I went trough for my current position wasn't at all that it was all about having done a lot of preparation in the form of hackerrank problems etc. On the one question that most closely looked like something from my preparations, I did worse than the others. This was because I didn't actually think the solution trough properly and mostly repeated what I "knew" was the answer.

My conclusion was that it's mostly about being able to solve novel (which means preparation matters less) problems in code and explain the reasoning behind the solution. It is of course possible that I was just lucky in having good interviewers, in which case I guess that would answer the question, more of that and less of syntax checks or finding the one true answer-type of questions.

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#49
post #24

Isn't this obvious blog traffic generation against HN guidelines? I'm flagging it.

Just because it’s a link to a blog? That’s the whole point of HN to like to blogs and other content. Which guideline is it breaking?

Re: Ask HN: Should we change the way we do software interviews? What's stopping us?

#50
I personally like the way we currently do software interviews. I got a nearly perfect SAT/GMAT through rote preparation (despite not doing so well in school generally), and brought this skill to bear on software engineering interviews. As such, I’ve had job offers at some of the best companies in the world, something my pedigree otherwise wouldn’t have allowed. I’m not able to get a job at McKinsey or BCG, no matter how well I do in case interviews, because they weight academics and prestige of school highly.

I get that many people, especially seniors, are annoyed by the general software engineering process because they feel entitled to certain positions. But for the most part it seems to make things as meritocratic as possible (aside from holding back certain populations because of bias, something people seem to be working on fixing).

So yeah I agree several day-long interviews for a company is draining and a huge time suck, but aside from that relatively minor inconvenience it puts everyone on a level playing field, and those who are “too good” for the game are free to opt out.

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