Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#281

Post by mtgx » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 11:11 AM UTC

I'm a little concerned with this type of posts. I understand there are other companies just as bad or maybe even worse than Facebook, but shouldn't we focus on them one at a time?

This type of articles tend to have the tone of "hey everyone does this, so maybe what FB is doing isn't so bad?"

That's a mistake and it's misleading. There is a reason The Guardian published Snowden's stories one at a time. People can't get mad at everything all at once. They get into analysis paralysis. Let's fix the issue with Facebook. Then once that's done, we can move on to Google. And then once that's done we can move on to the ISPs, and so on.

But if we throw this "the whole world is terrible and every company is bad" story at people, they aren't going to do anything.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#282

Post by izacus » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 11:11 AM UTC

millstone wrote: post #246

dnomad wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep repeating this falsehood: > Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google? It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will p…

You are giving Google way too much credit here. Google collects your location by default. I know so because I bought an Android phone just this month. Here is the setup screen, shown with default settings. [1] Google encourages developers to use the Play Services SDK for location services. This means that it is impossible to provide your location to just one app (say, Lyft) without also providing it to Google. [2] Yo…

> Google encourages developers to use the Play Services SDK for location services. This means that it is impossible to provide your location to just one app (say, Lyft) without also providing it to Google. [2]

This is a straight up lie. Yes, Google encourages fused location because it provides better experience (it bootstraps location via cell towers / bluetooth / wifi which requires data from Google servers). However it does NOT make it "impossible" to directly request data from location services on the phone which DOES NOT go through Google servers.

Please don't lie.

> For example, Apple Maps doesn't have a sign-in, and its server requests are associated with randomized rotating IDs, not your user account. Directions are broken up into multiple segments with different identifiers so that Apple can't reconstruct your trip.

Apple location services use pretty much the exact same system to provide fused location - they still call back to Apple servers to request information about your neighbouring wifis / cell towers which leaks your location to their cloud as well. Plus, Apple will sell out iCloud data of their customers to Chinese government (which makes me wonder if they're selling it out to NSA as well).

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#283

Post by singularity2001 » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 12:25 PM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

In Germany a friend asked the ISP's "data protection commissioner" (Datenschutzbeauftragter;) if he could regularly get a new IP address for privacy reasons. He did received answer saying: "this will not help you"

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#284

Post by dibstern » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 12:33 PM UTC

Google edits its search results to achieve political agenda. This is worse than Facebook, which is just used by other political actors. Google does it without a profit incentive, and if its own accord.

Evidence: Search “European History” or “American Inventors” in google.com. Now go to www.google.es and search “gente europea historia” or “inventor americano”.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#285

Post by scoggs » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 12:48 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #211

jonathanyc wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. It’s getting kind of ridiculous how many Google employees are showing up in these discussions saying “oh, if you work at Facebook, you’re horrible! but people at Google are really trying to make the world a better place.” I turned down a job offer from Facebook because after a lot of thought I decided I couldn’t work at such a company. I didn’t even apply to Google because Google’s attitude towards privacy a…

You keep repeating this falsehood: > Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google? It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will p…

I know what I'm about to say is totally uncalled for and frowned upon on HN but I really just can't help it right now:

Fight, fight, fight!

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#286

Post by pelario » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 12:50 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #253

jonathanyc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure as hell don't think my Grandma or Dad would have realized that Google's dark pattern[1] "opt-out" dialogs asking if they want to "make Android better" actually were asking for permission to send their location on a minute-by-minute basis to Google. How do you think Google populates their "Popular Times" card on search results?[2] Do you believe that even a simple majority of people going to a hospital, say, fo…

I can't see anything wrong with the opt-out screen during Android setup [1] The option you refer to says, "Help improve your Android experience by automatically sending diagnostic and usage data to Google." There is a separate option which says in part, "Anonymous location data will be sent to Google, even when no apps are running". That seems pretty clear to me - I can't see any dark pattern. [1] https://fscl01.fonp…

C'mon... Google maps will ask me turn my GPS every damn time I use it; no way "to remember this choice", but if I activated it, it is super happy to remember it.

Still don't see anything wrong?

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#287

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #186

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Google and Mozilla and a handful of organizations are converting all web traffic to HTTPS through subtle manipulation of standards and user interface. They even proxy mobile traffic from their search engine. ISPs can't even see what IP you're visiting because it's all fronted by CloudFlare. Even your DNS is being hidden by an HTTPS tunnel in the browser. Your ISP soon won't be able to see anything you do online.…

There's still SNI in TLS. Hopefully that changes in 1.3, but I don't know how prevalent that is yet.

Even without SNI the ISP could just check the destination IP themselves to find out what domain resides there.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#288

Post by sequence7 » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

scoggs wrote: post #285

dnomad wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep repeating this falsehood: > Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google? It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will p…

I know what I'm about to say is totally uncalled for and frowned upon on HN but I really just can't help it right now: Fight, fight, fight!

If you know it's uncalled for and frowned upon then please don't do it, you're just making HN worse for everyone.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#289

Post by SXX » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #287

lallysingh wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still SNI in TLS. Hopefully that changes in 1.3, but I don't know how prevalent that is yet.

Even without SNI the ISP could just check the destination IP themselves to find out what domain resides there.

Considering almost all websites except for largest one are behind one CDN / load balancer or another this is no longer relevant.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#290

Post by rsp1984 » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #211

jonathanyc wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. It’s getting kind of ridiculous how many Google employees are showing up in these discussions saying “oh, if you work at Facebook, you’re horrible! but people at Google are really trying to make the world a better place.” I turned down a job offer from Facebook because after a lot of thought I decided I couldn’t work at such a company. I didn’t even apply to Google because Google’s attitude towards privacy a…

You keep repeating this falsehood: > Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google? It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will p…

but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will prompt for it)

No and no. Not only is the data collection on by default, even if you turn it off some Google apps (e.g. Maps) just don't give a damn.

I recently updated Google Maps on my Android phone (a move I regret). A couple days later I went into town. I checked my phone after I was back home and it suggested I leave reviews for the stores I visited (it listed them). That creeped the heck out of me.