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Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

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Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#231

Post by langitbiru »

kuschku wrote: post #167
product50 wrote: post #21

If FB goes down for one day it is a minor inconvenience. If Google goes down for one day, I am literally at a standstill. No Maps, no Search, no GMail, no YouTube, no Photos! I don't know how I will get through the day without these services :( As such, with Google, I am more than ok them using my data to target me ads since it does feel a mutually beneficial relationship.

> No Maps Here Maps or OpenStreetMap > No Search I’ve switched to a mix of Qwant and DuckDuckGo, depending on question > No GMail I’ve been self-hosting all my mail for 4 years now, works fine thanks to simple solutions such as this tutorial https://workaround.org/ispmail > No YouTube This is the largest issue, but most of what I consume is either music or streams, and most of the streams are also on twitch, and the…

Yes, I can live without Google Map, Google Search, GMail, Photos, but Youtube is unavoidable. For me, Youtube is more than just music or cute videos. I learn programming, mathematics, physics a lot from Youtube. :(

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#232

Post by TuringNYC »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #122
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

Uh, Google and Mozilla and a handful of organizations are converting all web traffic to HTTPS through subtle manipulation of standards and user interface. They even proxy mobile traffic from their search engine. ISPs can't even see what IP you're visiting because it's all fronted by CloudFlare. Even your DNS is being hidden by an HTTPS tunnel in the browser. Your ISP soon won't be able to see anything you do online.…

I just searched for "privacy" and Google sent me to address: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=privacy&oq=privacy

Note, that URL (and search term as GET parameter) is visible to your ISP.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#233

Post by joering2 »

product50 wrote: post #205
joering2 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly curious what you have against DuckDuckGo or Protonmail, same with MapQuest.

You cannot be honest if you are asking this question. You are comparing MapQuest with Google Maps and are asking me, in all earnest, what is that I find better in GMaps? Similarly with Protonmail and GMail. How about email spam to start with? Or maybe email search? What about automatic filters? Or what about the fact the Protonmail is a subscription service if you want to use their advanced features.

I don't get any spam on Protonmail, they already have strong filters.

I don't use any automatic filters, but I could use their "Bridge" tools and install Bat on my Laptop and setup filters this way. Way more advance features in Bat than in Gmail.

Protonmail is subscription service, true. But just like I can afford $5 per day for a good coffee, I can afford $1 per day for a secure, encrypted email; although I can believe for someone living in third world country, $30 seem a fortune, and I don't blame you for your country's economical situation.

And if you prefer gmail for free and be their product that they analyze, dissect it and categorize you based on the content of your email then that's fine with me; I really don't care. You are simply their product, but with your HN username, I doubt I had to tell you that :)

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#234

Post by earthboundkid »

TuringNYC wrote: post #232
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Google and Mozilla and a handful of organizations are converting all web traffic to HTTPS through subtle manipulation of standards and user interface. They even proxy mobile traffic from their search engine. ISPs can't even see what IP you're visiting because it's all fronted by CloudFlare. Even your DNS is being hidden by an HTTPS tunnel in the browser. Your ISP soon won't be able to see anything you do online.…

I just searched for "privacy" and Google sent me to address: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=privacy&oq=privacy Note, that URL (and search term as GET parameter) is visible to your ISP.

URL paths are not visible over HTTPS. All they can get is the host name.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#235

Post by peterwwillis »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #229
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Google and Mozilla and a handful of organizations are converting all web traffic to HTTPS through subtle manipulation of standards and user interface. They even proxy mobile traffic from their search engine. ISPs can't even see what IP you're visiting because it's all fronted by CloudFlare. Even your DNS is being hidden by an HTTPS tunnel in the browser. Your ISP soon won't be able to see anything you do online.…

They still see every DNS request.

Not if your browser sends it over HTTPS.

Mozilla implementing it: https://www.ghacks.net/2018/03/20/firefox-dns-over-https-and...

Google's: https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/dns-over... Apparently Chrome uses this over QUIC, and Chrome's Data Saver also uses it

IETF charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/doh/about/

The unfortunate side-effect of preventing your OS from doing DNS queries is DNS-based ad blockers and privacy proxies no longer work.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#236

Post by ocdtrekkie »

drawkbox wrote: post #227
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google and ISPs both have monopolies, but ISPs have local monopolies and Google has global monopolies. In 2017, Google wasn't just "a" lobbyist, they were "the biggest" lobbyist, dwarfing any ISP's. When you say "Google and Facebook aside", it feels like you are literally missing the entire point... You have an elephant in your sinking boat, and you're worried about the weight of the dog.

We know that the companies are big and possibly seen as monopolies, the question was still unanswered though. Do you want your ISP tracking you and selling your private data? Do you think that is the place of an ISP? If you do like your ISP tracking and selling your private data, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is no place for ISPs to be evading privacy and selling your data. It isn't about competition…

It's funny that you link Jon Brodkin, because I was going to point out all of what gave you this erroneous impression was from a select handful of media properties which have incredibly close ties with Google...

You ignored that Google and Facebook are also the front door to the Internet, and that you cannot evade their privacy violations by just "not using them". You've also continued to not address that Google is a much larger monopoly than any company you're upset about. Adding all of the ISPs together would not even approach the scale of threat provided by Google, in money or reach.

You've seemed to decide that violating your privacy and security is okay for some companies and not others without really a reasonable distinction how. Especially given that Google and Facebook are both media companies (and ISPs), and so are Comcast and Verizon.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#237

Post by hiram112 »

pnutjam wrote: post #225
hueving wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What router are you using? I would like to do this for my parents but I don't want a full blown pfsense box as a requirement.

Asus Merlin is nice.

I love Merlin, too. The best deal for budget users is to get the AC1900 but as the T-Mobile version. It can be found for about $60 and and you'll need a few hours to flash the Merlin software over the TMobile firmware.

Best router I've ever had, and I run it with a PiHole on a Pi 3.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#238

Post by hiram112 »

ultimoo wrote: post #68
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

Sorry to sidetrack here -- but any good recommendations for paid VPNs?

I can run a Streisand server for about $3-4 / month on a EC2 / Azure instance. I take it offline when I don't use it and can get even cheaper.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#239

Post by hcnews »

gdwatson wrote: post #100
Ivoirians wrote: post #70

Disclaimer: I work for Google and these views are only my opinion, etc. From my perspective, Google's goals are aligned with improving the world by offering information services. Search, Gmail, Maps, Translate, basically all of the Other Bets, etc.--it's easy to imagine that the people behind them are more concerned with impact on the world than on generating profit or consolidating Google's power. To me, Facebook ha…

Google's idea of improving the world is hardly apolitical. Consider the YouTube rule changes on firearms -- whether or not they improve the world is going to depend on your views, but Google is surely throwing its weight around in a political way.

Only in the US can actions regarding firearms be considered a political move. (Most of) Rest of the world sees it as a safety issue and is happy to give away their firearms.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#240

Post by drawkbox »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #236
drawkbox wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that the companies are big and possibly seen as monopolies, the question was still unanswered though. Do you want your ISP tracking you and selling your private data? Do you think that is the place of an ISP? If you do like your ISP tracking and selling your private data, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is no place for ISPs to be evading privacy and selling your data. It isn't about competition…

It's funny that you link Jon Brodkin, because I was going to point out all of what gave you this erroneous impression was from a select handful of media properties which have incredibly close ties with Google... You ignored that Google and Facebook are also the front door to the Internet, and that you cannot evade their privacy violations by just "not using them". You've also continued to not address that Google is a…

- Do you want your ISP tracking you and selling your private data? Do you think that is the place of an ISP?

- Does it bother you you are PAYING your ISP and they are reselling your data as well?

- Do you trust Comcast and Verizon and like that you are paying them to sell your data when you just want to use them to get online and are ok with this?

It is funny you keep evading those important questions and flipping back to Facebook/Google. Just want to get you on record on the ISP question. I have already stated all are powerful and there is an expectation of tracking from advertising companies like Google/Facebook, that was not possible until the ISP privacy bill that removed privacy protections.

Also that data from broadband numbers is DIRECTLY from the FCC report the FCC created, it is just summarized on ars, does the FCC have a Google bias?[1].

The fact that you supposedly know the guys bias and associate it with Google is probably a hint of bias on your side. Maybe you just like ISPs selling your private data while paying for the service.

> You've seemed to decide that violating your privacy and security is okay for some companies and not others without really a reasonable distinction how.

I believe I explained this clearly multiple times. ISPs are literally the definitely of a 'gateway' or doorway to the internet. Facebook/Google are built on top of it and yes you can route around them or block them easily with host loopback or at firewall/routers etc, there are competitors to those apps, not so much with network gateways/ISPs [1]. Is the EFF also in Google's bias? [2]

You've seemed to decide that violating your privacy and security is okay for ISPs who previously were not able to but lobbied to have those privacy protections removed without answering whether you think that they should.

I don't believe any ISP should have access to your private data nor sell it, especially because you are paying for it. I say the same for Google Fiber and and Facebook ISP overseas if they have them. ISPs SHOULD NOT be accessing private data and selling it, they are the gateway to the internet and that is TOO MUCH POWER. If ISPs want advertising networks or tracking, build a search engine or a social network or like Comcast has in Hulu, or buy one. Only track on a destination site that I can CHOOSE NOT to use that doesn't double as my entry to the web, that has way more monopolistic tendencies in terms of control of your data.

[1] https://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/201...

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/five-creepy-things-you...

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