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Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

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Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#41

Post by notahacker »

throwaway52 wrote: post #22
tjp wrote: post #20

What really caught my eyes is the Christmas prediction. I used to work for a startup that ended up belly, hmm, sideways, and the process a -lot- longer than I expected. Money ran out in November. In December, they laid off 10%, and then there was always someone to cough up some money to make the whole thing going, until June, when the company was bought up (and I said goodbye) - it took another 6 months for the new o…

We've all discussed other options and belly up would be the worst case scenario ... they're hoping that they can, at worst, get bought up by some conglomerate to ease the pain. The safe "thing" about it, though, is that for the most part, they can't do what they want to do at all without me. So, while I may not enjoy the circumstances, I do have job security until the job disappears.

If they get bought up by some other conglomerate before they've been able to bring themselves to pony up the lawyers fees to give you equity, they make money and you don't. If the other conglomerate has their own programmers and their own preferred way of building things, you quite possibly still find yourself looking for another job.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#42

Post by baguasquirrel »

gaius wrote: post #30
throwaway52 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the experience based insight. I've had that nagging worry all along. Part of me has wanted to be a bit more trustworthy as they've shown themselves to be very friendly people -- I regularly go to bars with the CEO outside of work, the COO and I share interests and talk about them/engage in them (being vague here), etc. But I think your point is pretty clear and well thought out. And pretty much not arguabl…

Sorry to be so blunt but in this setting, friendly and manipulative are synonyms.

I couldn't agree more, and add one to the folks who've been in the "when we become revenue neutral". The funny thing is that in my case, the entire company bought into the founder's line on that (well, only about 12 people), because none of us had done a startup before and we didn't know better. In any case, that's not how it works in the startup world. There's a reason why over the years, companies adopted vesting schedules.

edit: I should add that in my case, the stock options were left out more out of ineptness than maliciousness. Either way it's a bad sign. The company imploded after a year and a half, but not before one of the employees mentioned the options in a disgruntled tone. In short, we wondered if the founder really cared about our contribution.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#44

Post by gojomo »

N non-coding MBAs (N>1) plus 1 software person is usually an antipattern, even if the technical person is an equal founder.

The possible exceptions would be if the MBAs bring giant domain experience, prospects-ready-to-buy, or enough funding to pursue a larger/longer-term vision (with a salary and extra tech staff).

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#45

Post by ScottBurson »

throwaway52 wrote: post #21

Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?

Under the circumstances (which have been well covered in other posts) I wouldn't offer them a minute more than 2 weeks.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#46

Post by dragoon »

throwaway52 wrote: post #23
dragoon wrote: post #17

Let's get real about something: they're business guys, and you're the technical muscle, right? You seem young, and you're probably as good at sizing them up (note your "great people" comment) as the average MBA is at writing code; by this, I mean, not at all. Don't even try. Make your decisions based on hard facts, such as how much equity you have already and when you will start collecting a salary, and not based on…

Wowzer. I really appreciate the honesty -- and you're right about the fact that they are quite established MBAs and I am just a young idealistic programmer. The fact that the CEO will often pull code off the internet and say we should use it shows me that respect is not really there and from that, I've always questioned how much they respect me/my role/my abilities. I think you're spot on about giving them the option…

So the CEO is also micromanaging you down to lines of code off the internet. Leave as soon as you can. Start looking for jobs today.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#47

Post by sprout »

mgkimsal wrote: post #38
throwaway52 wrote: post #21

Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?

You can give notice, but in many positions, you'll be out the door within the hour. Nothin personal, but that's how it is. I've given 2 weeks notice and been escorted out the door within 30 minutes, and I've given 2 weeks noticed and asked to stay longer. Whatever you give, be prepared that that's your last day, and plan accordingly. They may see it as an act of betrayal or a loyalty issue, and will have you leave th…

I find that "out the door within the hour" extraordinarily unprofessional. I wouldn't want to work in a situation where people think throwing someone out on their ass without collecting documentation, checking up on projects, and generally tying up loose ends is a good strategy.

It just sounds like an extraordinarily petty and ineffective way to deal with losing a team member.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#48

Post by danshapiro »

throwaway52 wrote: post #12
gte910h wrote: post #3

You're just an employee, if you feel your company is going under, find other employment. Once you find another offer, they'll either offer you a share of the company to stay, or you can leave.

This is probably true -- though I've been in situations like that before (swap shares for money) and never take them as I just don't think that type of very passive "threat" (for lack of a better term) is ever fruitful. But, on the other hand, I don't have a ton of business experience, so maybe it would work out. Do you have any experience in those situations? Staying after discussing leaving?

Many articles have been written about this: don't ever accept a counteroffer (google "counteroffer" to find them). It is generally just a way to delay your departure until they can quietly find your replacement, at which point they will fire you. And you don't want to work at a company that only treats you fairly when you threaten them.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#49

Post by mlaccetti »

gte910h wrote: post #3

You're just an employee, if you feel your company is going under, find other employment. Once you find another offer, they'll either offer you a share of the company to stay, or you can leave.

If you find another position, take it. Don't try to use quitting as leverage to make things happen - even if you stay on, your actions will always be there, lurking in the background.

Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?

#50

Post by danshapiro »

Your CEO, CFO, and COO are either completely ignorant of finances, or are cold-hearted jerks. It is simple and easy to grant you options (or even founder shares, although that would be unusual) in an S-corp right now (if you'd said LLC, then there would be a case to be made that they didn't want to issue equity until they converted to a C-corp, which is expensive - but it still means they're selfish and/or dumb for doing it that way).

Once you've got revenue, your company value is materially higher, and they can no longer easily transfer you shares (since you have to pay taxes based on the value of the shares). And any options they grant you must have a strike price of the current fair market value, which will be provably higher if the company has gone from no revenue to some revenue, which just takes money out of your pocket for no good reason.

I generally go by Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." With the huge caveat that I've only heard your side of the story, it sounds like your cofounders are well meaning, drunk with power, and ignorant of how to do their jobs. Find a new job first, then tell them you're leaving. If they ask nicely and your new employer doesn't mind, you might give them 4 weeks.

But most employees err in the direction of too much loyalty to their last job, so resist the urges to extend further, do consulting, or otherwise fail to break the bond. You are probably doing the founders of this company a huge favor. They cannot run a successful company the way they're running this one. Giving them the wakeup call they need - politely, reasonably, and professionally, by departing gracefully - will leave them with enough runway to rethink their strategy and could save their endeavor. And it's definitely the right thing for you.

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