Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?
Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
21–30 of 76 posts
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#22What really caught my eyes is the Christmas prediction. I used to work for a startup that ended up belly, hmm, sideways, and the process a -lot- longer than I expected. Money ran out in November. In December, they laid off 10%, and then there was always someone to cough up some money to make the whole thing going, until June, when the company was bought up (and I said goodbye) - it took another 6 months for the new o…
We've all discussed other options and belly up would be the worst case scenario ... they're hoping that they can, at worst, get bought up by some conglomerate to ease the pain. The safe "thing" about it, though, is that for the most part, they can't do what they want to do at all without me. So, while I may not enjoy the circumstances, I do have job security until the job disappears.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#23Let's get real about something: they're business guys, and you're the technical muscle, right? You seem young, and you're probably as good at sizing them up (note your "great people" comment) as the average MBA is at writing code; by this, I mean, not at all. Don't even try. Make your decisions based on hard facts, such as how much equity you have already and when you will start collecting a salary, and not based on…
Wowzer. I really appreciate the honesty -- and you're right about the fact that they are quite established MBAs and I am just a young idealistic programmer.
The fact that the CEO will often pull code off the internet and say we should use it shows me that respect is not really there and from that, I've always questioned how much they respect me/my role/my abilities.
I think you're spot on about giving them the option of keeping me or not -- I don't generally like to threaten anyone about leaving, but I think if handled well, I can explain my expectations and what I'd like, and then go from there. With a backup plan of course.
Thanks for the insight.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#24I've been an early employee / only programmer in a startup in the past, in which the founder said the exact same thing -- once we get to "revenue neutral," you'll get "a big share of equity." It won't happen. They only said that to keep a carrot in front of you for a little while longer. If the company ever gets to revenue neutral, their idea of a "big share" will suddenly change. After all, why give a programmer a s…
Yep. No big slice of the pie for you. Actually, what they'll do is give you a crumb that fell off the pie and make you wait 4 years before you can eat it. Tomorrow never happens.
Good point on vesting. Chances are that your vesting would start when they start giving you equity (if they eventually do). Even if they were to give you the same amount it's not fair to you to have to wait a couple extra years to finish vesting.
The risks you're taking right now will also look a lot less once the company gets to revenue neutral. "we made it, so it wasn't that risky after all…" it'll be easy for them to negotiate down at that point.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#25Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?
It's no different to any other job - you look at what your contract says and that's it. If you have no contract then look at what the default legal position is in your country / state.
In the UK I'd tend to consider 4 weeks "normal" both in terms of what a contract would say and what I'd expect but that may be very UK specific.
There are some situations where you might want to extend it a little if you think it's in your interest (normally that would be about not leaving on bad terms if there's a chance that it might damage your reputation to go earlier or not leaving other colleagues in the lurch) but that doesn't turn weeks into months.
As someone said, this isn't personal, this is business. Take a good honest look at how they've treated you - if you think they've gone above and beyond for you then you might reciprocate but the reality is that most businesses will act in their own interest and you should do likewise. If the owners / managers get offended by this then they're really not cut out for it.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#26I worked in a similar situation, though with a group of people who wanted to form an arts venue in the largest city in my state (I'm in the midwest).
When I agreed to come on (after leaving teaching), there was promise of salary. The salary never materialized, and so I was putting in 80-100 hours of free labor per week, and paying for my own expenses while doing so.
Meanwhile, the project ballooned from $250k to $2.7mil, and our investor (who is one of only 2 or 3 people I've ever actively disliked) bailed when he realized that the fellow I worked for was trying to extract quite a bit of money out of him.
I left after 7 months, and will never be reimbursed for the 2,000+ hours I put into reading, researching, writing, and networking. They still have exactly no money.
This isn't exactly analogous, but similar enough. Sometimes the boat's going to sink (to use your captain metaphor). Given that you don't own part of the company, and that your employers seem to think of you as replaceable, your obligation is minimal.
The fact that they're looking at changing what they do complete is not an encouraging sign, as it's very difficult to shift back from those changes.
Were I in your shoes, I'd quit and would be reaching back out to the startups who reached out to me, as well as to others that seem like good places to work. I would make it clear to my employers why I was quitting (in business, rather than personal, terms), and would hope that such honesty helps them to survive, or at least to make better decisions in the future.
This approach has worked well for me in the past, as it lets me maintain personal relationships (and even professional relationships) while extricating myself from situations neatly and efficiently.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#27Why does it matter that this is a startup? I mean that seriously: you don't have any equity, you're not a founder. If this were a job at any random, established company and you saw the end coming, you wouldn't hesitate to get out. And it doesn't sound like the best job in the world.
It's just a job, and jobs end. Treat it like one.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do they only want to give you a share when they're revenue-neutral? A limited company, their liability is extremely limited, I'm assuming it's not a partnership. There's no reason for them not to give you equity right now .
From what they said was that to give out shares at this point would require additional lawyer fees. They are already formed as an S corp (I believe), so I'm not sure how much lawyer fees would be required, but nevertheless, I was young and naive when I first started (this is my first startup) and probably should have pushed a bit harder.
A startup whose founders can go on holiday for a week can afford lawyer's fees.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#29Quit.
Re: Ask HN: When are you allowed to quit a startup?
#30I've been an early employee / only programmer in a startup in the past, in which the founder said the exact same thing -- once we get to "revenue neutral," you'll get "a big share of equity." It won't happen. They only said that to keep a carrot in front of you for a little while longer. If the company ever gets to revenue neutral, their idea of a "big share" will suddenly change. After all, why give a programmer a s…
Thanks for the experience based insight. I've had that nagging worry all along. Part of me has wanted to be a bit more trustworthy as they've shown themselves to be very friendly people -- I regularly go to bars with the CEO outside of work, the COO and I share interests and talk about them/engage in them (being vague here), etc. But I think your point is pretty clear and well thought out. And pretty much not arguabl…
Sorry to be so blunt but in this setting, friendly and manipulative are synonyms.