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Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the issue here is more an issue of work conditions and rates, rather than a problem with the actual work. A counter-anecdote: A couple years ago I decided to freelance on the side, but went the other way - I charged triple my day rate, and set a simple rule: no stress allowed. If the client had tight deadlines or a stressful personality, I didn't pursue them. It's been a massively fun few years, and I'…

> I charged triple my day rate What was your rate, if you don't mind me asking? About how many hours/month were you able to book? I'm asking because high rates are great if you can get regular work...

Not sure if relevant, as I'm in Denmark and I don't know where you are located. But I charge $100/hour plus VAT and that is pretty much the standard rate here in Denmark for freelance work. I'm a .NET developer doing only backend work and I am currently working for a client 40 hours/week at $100/hour. Pretty much same as a regular employee except I'm self employed and my paycheck is 2-3 times that of a regular employee.

Regular work is not hard to get, I used an agency to get me this client, so they add a percentage on top of my rate when they charge the client, but if you have a good network of acquaintances, you can get work that way.

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#182
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

commute. lunch. bathroom. that will probably take 60-120 minutes of your day. driving to clients for meetings. may be billable, may not be. driving to potential clients for meetings, and having those meetings - not billable. dealing with incoming calls and emails. actually trying to market yourself - blogging, or some other content work, or applying for conference speaking, or planning presentations for local groups…

You aren't billing for _debugging_? I would also include in my billing a 30 minute lunch over an 8 hour day, which is the minimum mandated by local (Canadian) labour law, and I would bill for any incoming calls and email that is related to the project I'm working on. I'm definitely aware of how different my time feels when I'm billing, and I've tried to relax a bit. I think billing daily or weekly is always better th…

it really depends on the root cause. there are times when I bill for debugging. someone else made a change to a system which caused issues and it took a bunch of my time to resolve? yes. if the root ends up being my own fault, generally no.

The overhead of recording time and dealing with every call and email ends up being - for me - way too much time/recordkeeping. Scheduled calls/meetings, yes. Someone has a 3 minute call where I can answer a followup question - I just answer it. "But you'll be interrupted all the time with 3 minute calls!" - except, if I'm too busy or don't want to be distracted... I just don't take the call.

Daily/weekly can be, if the clients are OK with that too. I've found some that aren't. along with that, I typically have multiple projects running simultaneously, and I can't - in my mind - ethically charge for a 'day' if I've split my time on 2-3 projects that day.

I don't like charging for time at all, really, but some orgs aren't really set up to handle any other mode of work (and/or, want flexibility in change, so time may be the least unfair approach).

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#183

Rate and job funnel is a function of portfolio strength. 1/ Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/ (it can be a github markdown gist, host images on imgur or github might even let you copy/paste images into markdown now). You do not want to be coding javascript and html here. It needs to iterate fast. And it needs to be done yesterday. Use markdown. Or a g…

> Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/

I see that you are a 2-person "shop" - would you still have a "foo-consulting.com" personality if you were going solo? I'm kinda torn between the two.

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill per hour and charge more.

More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts. They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job. And it encourages them to take up your time with meetings and support and new "quick" features to add. Best is a fixed hourly rate, providing them an estimate, and setting it up so that you won't exceed a maximum (after which you can reevaluate with them whether to continue). This lets you…

> More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts.

Strongly disagree. I've been doing fixed cost contracts for a very long time with great success. You just need to know what you're doing.

> They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job.

Billing hourly does that. It encourages you to "fit" yourself within the estimate that you had to provide. That's fine if you overshot, but if you were way under, now you're under a ton of pressure to get things done quick and you end up doing a quick hatchet job. All because you want to avoid explaining how you were wrong on the estimate. If you keep missing the target, which can happen even with the best of us, the entire project can turn into a pile of excrement.

With fixed price, there's no timer on the side of your table. You take the time to do it right. If you're off by a day or two, the client will take that delay a lot easier than a bill that's twice what they expected AND took twice as long.

Do you lose out since you worked time that you didn't get paid for? Sure. You also win when you get the work done faster than what you estimated. It will even out, but the client will be happier since the experience is less volatile for them.

Which is the point. Clients much prefer a fixed price, since it lets them budget accordingly.

Think of it this way, if you were hiring a plumber, would you want the guy to show up and say his rate is 300 an hour or would you prefer him to show up and say this is going to cost you 150. Which is less stressful? What are you more likely to say "yes" to?

> And it encourages them to take up your time with meetings and support and new "quick" features to add.

No. I set the meetings at the beginning of the project. We meet on a regular basis. There are no surprise meetings. All communication outside of those meetings is via slack/email.

Also a "quick" feature in my book is something that takes me 15 minutes. I do those at no additional cost since it would take me longer to bill for those. I get less than a dozen per project, which works out to a few hours of work which is already expected and added to the budget. Anything over 15 minutes will get a fixed price cost and additional time added to deadline. I've never had a client push back on this way of doing things.

> Best is a fixed hourly rate, providing them an estimate, and setting it up so that you won't exceed a maximum (after which you can reevaluate with them whether to continue).

Clients hate this, since they have no idea what it'll cost. Even if your way of doing things will cost them less. They hate uncertainty. They already have enough of that.

The maximum you're setting is my fixed price, which I simply get paid every time and the client is happy because they know what's coming their way.

On top of that, you're stressing on your end when you start to approach that maximum and start cutting back on the quality of work. I just focus on getting the job done.

> This lets you be flexible on the spec and respond quickly to changes they may want

I can do the same with fixed price. You still need to provide an hourly estimate for any changes. It's really the same thing as approving a fixed price change.

> it lets you get compensated for all those little things that you don't plan for like meetings

Again, meetings suck, they should be kept to a minimum and should be 100% controlled by you. They should be a highly predictable part of the equation or you're wasting time.

> and you no longer have to give your time estimate a padding to ensure you meet the deadline.

Yes, you do. A deadline is a deadline, regardless of how you charge the client. Estimate what it'll take you and then multiply by 2. If your estimate is still off after that, you need to work on your estimation skills.

I've never had a client get pissed at me for finishing early. Hell, you can just finish the work early and then do something else for a week, then deliver on time. But don't be LATE. People HATE that.

Always pad your time. By as much as possible!

> Although they pay less on average, I think you also make more on average.

No =) I tried both ways, for years at a time. You make more when you're not a commodity and when you're hourly, you'll be seen as a commodity.

> Consider, for a fixed cost project you need to create rigorous specs that take weeks to develop

You need a clear SOW (statement of work) regardless of how you bill. If you're not doing that, you're in for a world of hurt.

> then negotiate over how hard different things are.

No? Just price all the options and let the client choose.

> And god forbid they want to add a new feature or change a spec

When they ask for changes, I just price them out over email. It's literally one sentence. This will cost X and will take X extra days. That's it. You need to do that if you're working hourly as well?

> necessitating either you just doing it for free

Never work for free.

> negotiating a whole new add-on project.

Love additional work.

> I'd way rather take on two clients and not spend my time negotiating and doing paperwork.

I'd rather take on three =)

Look, I think you're conflating some bad business practices with how you bill. How you bill does NOT force you to engage in those business practices. It's just how you bill.

I prefer to bill in a way that makes my clients less stressed out which makes me less stressed out in turn. I also have an easier time divorcing PRICE from TIME. This is REALLY important if you want to make more money.

I've done lots of work where I've been paid $1000 per hour when I break it down by time. Can you say the same?

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#185
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts. They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job. And it encourages them to take up your time with meetings and support and new "quick" features to add. Best is a fixed hourly rate, providing them an estimate, and setting it up so that you won't exceed a maximum (after which you can reevaluate with them whether to continue). This lets you…

> More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts. Strongly disagree. I've been doing fixed cost contracts for a very long time with great success. You just need to know what you're doing. > They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job. Billing hourly does that. It encourages you to "fit" yourself within the estimate that you had to provide. That's fine if you overshot, but if you w…

Amazing post/reply. Your comments mostly echo how I run my business and are a nice reminder for me that what I'm doing works! :)

I think there is an art to marrying the idea of billing hourly and fixed-price projects.

For me, projects are estimated and estimated are approved by the client. I will do my best to ensure work is completed within that time frame. However, if more work than estimated is required to complete a project, it is my responsibility to notify the client as soon as possible. I will provide an estimate for the time I believe necessary to complete the job, and the client will approve this new estimate. Me all agree to this up-front; it's in the Statement of Work. Always have a Statement of Work!

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#186
post #183

Rate and job funnel is a function of portfolio strength. 1/ Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/ (it can be a github markdown gist, host images on imgur or github might even let you copy/paste images into markdown now). You do not want to be coding javascript and html here. It needs to iterate fast. And it needs to be done yesterday. Use markdown. Or a g…

> Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/ I see that you are a 2-person "shop" - would you still have a "foo-consulting.com" personality if you were going solo? I'm kinda torn between the two.

I have a similar issue.

On any portfolio site I've attempted to build, I really dislike using the word "I" (e.g. "I can help you build a website!").. but using "we" seems disingenuious. (e.g. "We can help you with your programming woes!").

Recently though, I'm leaning towards "we" because it's better business-speak, the "we" seems less risky, and it may not be factually incorrect if you ever outsource any work.

Generally, I tend to avoid writing copy that uses pronouns altogether.

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#187
post #148
post #122

I built something to help HN users network together. I can't promise it'll bring you work, but it'll help you connect with other members of this community without much effort on your part. https://findkismet.com

Is there a button I can press to request a new connection 'today'? First connection I got today wasn't interesting to me so now I need to wait till tomorrow.

Connections are limited to 1 per day for now. Once you've gotten a few I think you'll find it to be plenty to keep up with!

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#188
post #183

Rate and job funnel is a function of portfolio strength. 1/ Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/ (it can be a github markdown gist, host images on imgur or github might even let you copy/paste images into markdown now). You do not want to be coding javascript and html here. It needs to iterate fast. And it needs to be done yesterday. Use markdown. Or a g…

> Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/ I see that you are a 2-person "shop" - would you still have a "foo-consulting.com" personality if you were going solo? I'm kinda torn between the two.

Be real. I branded around www.dustingetz.com as an individual for several years. We are branded around a company right now because we're moving away from freelancing and are in a weird transition period.

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#189

CodeMentor.io FreeeUp.com Upwork.com Fiverrr.com (not just $5 gigs) Codeable.io Do you need more?

Ergh... Probably the worst places to find work. A saturated market of freelancers that will accept any price to do any work. OP you're better than this!

I've been a mentor on Codementor for almost a year now, and it's the opposite of what you're suggesting. I have very professional mentoring sessions solving interesting problems, and getting payed really good money.

Re: Ask HN: How do you find freelance work?

#190
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts. They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job. And it encourages them to take up your time with meetings and support and new "quick" features to add. Best is a fixed hourly rate, providing them an estimate, and setting it up so that you won't exceed a maximum (after which you can reevaluate with them whether to continue). This lets you…

> More specifically, don't do fixed cost contracts. Strongly disagree. I've been doing fixed cost contracts for a very long time with great success. You just need to know what you're doing. > They misalign all the incentives, and encourages you to do a worse quality job. Billing hourly does that. It encourages you to "fit" yourself within the estimate that you had to provide. That's fine if you overshot, but if you w…

>I've done lots of work where I've been paid $1000 per hour when I break it down by time. Can you say the same?

Unfortunately it can go the other way too : you work for $10/hr.

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