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Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

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431–440 of 548 posts

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#431
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are a startup in France, with long-term employees, and suddenly you realize you screwed up, and you have to cut your expenses in half. You dismiss employees equivalent to half of your expenses on economic grounds, and after the appropriate notice period (1 month for employees with 6 months - 2 years tenure [1]) you now have half the expenses. If that's not fast enough, I doubt your startup would have survived f…

OK, no problem, I am convinced because Europe has tons of successful startups. That works great until the next time I am interviewed by French TV about why the EU doesn't have as many startups as Silicon Valley.

> why the EU doesn't have as many startups as Silicon Valley

I'm french. I can't speak for sure about other EU countries, but I can speak about France.

The REAL and main reason why tech startups are less frequent here is cultural.

In France we have a HUGE problem with elitism & a widespread negative attitude toward anybody who tries to innovate/change/make things. It's a pervasive problem, I've been MANY times hit HARD by that problem. Initiative is strongly discouraged (even if most people will claim the opposite): no matter what you do, a LOT of people will immediately give you _negative_ critics of all kind, sometimes mind-bogglingly stupid: "it'll never work", "that's not a good idea", etc. The more clueless they are, the most aggresisve they are about it. It's really hard to be motivated in such an environment, and of course it also has a direct impact when you try to find funds or associates...

Also, many people, especially the managers & the elites only see the BIG companies as being worth anything, despite the fact that small to medium businesses make the majority of employment & create the most value.

Add to that the HUGE problem that managers and all the elite (politics, leaders, whatever), salespeople, and many others, have an extremely TOXIC attitude toward people who DO THINGS. For instance I was given shit many times because while being a team lead I was involved in the programming part. To them, a manager does NOT get his/her hands DIRTY. Which is stupid of course and explains a LOT of the problems we have here. And trust me, this goes very far, there is a real CONTEMPT toward people like me, who are the ones who build the products & services that bring all the money. I've been mocked to my face because of that by people (sales & managers) who have no clue about how to manage a project, a team, and even less a programming project... (And I've worked on HUGE telecom projects, not a couple of PHP pages). Same goes for everybody in my family, who are mostly scientists/engineers. This in turn creates a big dissatisfaction -or worse- in the people who are in the trenches, creating an awful "us versus them" mentality that kills productivity & often creates a very bad work atmosphere.

And don't get me started about the awful prejudices against programmers (and everybody involved in computer projects). It's REALLY bad! So bad that I regret choosing that field. Here also there is a huge contempt & all the ridiculous prejudices that you probably know about nerds, programmers, etc. (Of the hundreds of developers/SE I've met, I can count on the fingers of ONE hand the ones who somewhat fit the stereotypes, and those were people with severe mental issues, something not related to the job). Another BIG problem is the "programming is easy" B.S. This leads many managers to think that they can replace experienced people like me with cheap beginners, sometimes in foreign countries, with disastrous results (as I wrote above, I worked in BIG projects, with crushing responsibilities, not the stuff that beginners can handle by themselves even if they are good which was not the case because being cheap, they were not the best, not by a long shot).

The huge bureaucracy does not help either, but it's not the most important issue.

In case someone points out the few recent initiatives to encourage startups in France, let me repeat what I just wrote: the fundamental issue is ATTITUDE. Until we can fix that, everything else is basically useless.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a different world. The US is a free country. You are free to work wherever they accept you. A job is not a right: you cannot demand anything that someone else must provide you. And people for the most part are free to start a business pretty much whether it should exist or not regardless of anybody else’s opinions.

There is a right to work under the responsibility to protect. Industry structure that produces a permanent underclass is a form of violence, and class warfare.

This is a bizarre take on a business relationship between two free entities.

Is an employee allowed to quit? What about the "violence" it does to the company, investors, and fellow employees? Must they stick around to provide continuity? If so, how is this not indenture?

Am I allowed to fire a painter I hire to paint my house if I think he does poor work? Do I need to document his performance and discuss an improvement plan? Does this change if I own a house big enough to keep him painting for a month? For a year?

Employment represents a contract between two parties. Basic freedom of association and contract law means both parties can enter and leave under the terms they negotiate and have a rational self interest in acting in good faith.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#433
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At higher cost, less is demanded, and we tend to be loss averse. Driving up the perceived risk and thus the cost of firing bad employees unavoidably reduces the supply of jobs. No good or service is perfectly inelastic — certainly not employees.

At higher cost, less is demanded, and we tend to be loss averse. Driving up the perceived risk and thus the cost of firing bad employers unavoidably reduces the supply of labor.

Indeed, it’s a two-way street, and that’s a good thing! As someone who got tired of the bureaucracy and lame policies, I took my labor and started my own company. It turns out that there is a noticeable minority of entrepreneurs, freelancers, and the self-employed around these parts.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, there is a bigger problem with at will employment than being able to be fired at any time. If your employer wants to change your contract in almost any fashion, their continued employment of you is considered to be sufficient “consideration” for the change. They want to put you on call? No extra pay required. Change you to the night shift? You still have a job, that’s sufficient. It’s an employee right…

> They want to put you on call? No extra pay required. Change you to the night shift? You still have a job, that’s sufficient. How is it not? You can always threaten to quit if they don't give you a raise. The only way that doesn't work is if they can easily replace you with someone willing to work harder for less money. And in that case that's what they're supposed to do. You would only be willing to quit if you had…

Oh yeah the $14/hr employee is just gonna quit, because they can afford to go without income for the next few weeks while looking for a new one. Or not.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#435
post #43

TL;DR: Marriott puts out a survey, someone compliments them on the content of the survey via a tweet, an employee likes the tweet, and gets fired because China gets triggered.

I've come to appreciate when I make posts that get downvoted sometimes, because it means I'm not bending to the will of peer pressure.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the real story is how much businesses kowtow to the Chinese government and enable their human rights abuses. I would be quite happy to see Marriott face blowback in the US and other parts of the world over this as people show their support for a free Tibet. Letting China browbeat businesses into submission for the privilege of operating in that market isn't a good thing and more businesses need to be made to decid…

> Letting China browbeat businesses into submission for the privilege of operating in that market isn't a good thing I don't think "letting" is a very accurate word in this case — Marriott could pull out of China (likely at a loss) but the company doesn't want to because it would be financially stupid. In fact, as a public company Marriott is mandated to act in its shareholders' best financial interests.

> In fact, as a public company Marriott is mandated to act in its shareholders' best financial interests.

Mandated by what law? What if Marriott determines that long-term goodwill in their brand is what's in their shareholders' best financial interests?

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all of this is different from NL or most other European countries how? Hint: it isn't, we just have sensible protections against wrongful termination.

"sensible" is meaningless. Everyone gets to make up their own def. Parent is correct, the US is a free country, which means beyond some _very_ simple rules we don't try to think for employers, we let the consumers do that. That's the point of a functioning market. I prominently tell companies why they don't get my business, and Marriott will hear from me next year when I call, waste their time gleefully explaining ho…

Parent is correct, the US is a free country, which means beyond some _very_ simple rules we don't try to think for employers, we let the consumers do that. That's the point of a functioning market.

This assumes a definition of 'functioning market' that not everyone agrees on. In my view the market and the government serve the well-being of the general population. The US is starting to fail miserably in that area, because income inequality is pretty bad and has steadily been growing since the 1970'ies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient#/media/File:G...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

Moreover, the influence of industry lobbying in the US had become enormous and paralyzes democracy. Of course, the industrial complexes and part of the government keeps up the fairytale of 'the US is a free country, if you don't make it, you are not working hard enough, the market is self-regulating', because it is convenient for them. As long as people believe this, they will not object to having no rights and no decent income. If you are a random person, the opportunities of building up a good and secure life are much better in Nothern and Western Europe.

tl;dr: not only the government needs to be kept in check, also the market. Otherwise big companies dictate the policies.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#438
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economist must consider both the seen and the unseen. Yes, people have jobs in Denmark 🇩🇰, but there are employment positions and opportunities that do not exist because firing regulations price them out of the market.

Possibly true, though nonexistent jobs must surely be a difficult thing to count. But at will employment also imposes economuc costs, which economists don't really care to count, like economic security, health and psychological well being, mutual respect between companies and their public, and the opportunities to do stupid image damaging life-harmful shite like Marriot did to this man.

I’m sympathetic to the person in the story. Firing over such a slight, possibly inadvertent, infraction seems excessive, and that makes me suspect we don’t know the whole story.

As much racket as people have made in this thread about at-will status in the U.S., the truth is more moderate. Not all states have at-will employment. Even in those that do, there are protected classes. The former Marriott employee might easily file an age-discrimination lawsuit, for example.

But again, consider the unseen. Marriott’s management has created a possible advantage for their competitors. The man has been given his moment in the limelight, a fantastic opportunity to better himself and his situation.

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#439
post #425
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economist must consider both the seen and the unseen. Yes, people have jobs in Denmark 🇩🇰, but there are employment positions and opportunities that do not exist because firing regulations price them out of the market.

Yeah slavery jobs tend to disappear where proper worker rights are enforced. This is not the middle ages anymore.

Aw shucks, you’ve uncovered my conspiracy to return to the Middle Ages. Next time I’ll have to use a double-secret decoder ring!

Re: Omaha man ‘liked’ a tweet, then lost his job

#440
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue is Chinese culture, but it is Chinese leadership--which, admittedly, has encouraged and created a culture of concerning nationalism and subservience to authoritarians with no respect for human rights or rule of law. If you look back in contemporary Chinese history, there are several episodes where influential groups were openly supporting a more democratic society. It wasn't Chinese culture th…

It wasn't Chinese culture that stopped them. It was Mao, the CCP, the tanks in Tienamen Square, and the more recently the ubiquitous propaganda and censorship (...) the brainwashers (...) In the last four decades, the poverty rate in China has fallen from over 90% to below 10%. http://iresearch.worldbank.org/PovcalNet/images/ChinaSpecial... Hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty, most people h…

well said, to the contrary, it appears we -- americans/europeans -- are the brainwashed ones. instead of finding common cause we our fellow human beings we all too easily follow our leadership's narrative that the people of China are our enemies.
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