It’s the Stranger. I trust it as a news source as much as I trust Breitbart. Mudede, the author, is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
61–70 of 78 posts
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#62I live in the area, and I actually have calculated how much an upper middle class existence would cost for a family of 3. $90k or so. Upper middle class mortgage from 2012, taxes, one midrange car loan, medical insurance, utilities, food, other insurance, one decent vacation a year. Pretty good lifestyle, all in all. As a family of 3 you don’t even have to work that hard to earn this amount in Seattle area. So I have…
This means a basic average lifestyle in Seattle now only takes 150% of the average wage in the state, or about 120% of the average income in Seattle, the city.
https://esd.wa.gov/newsroom/washingtons-average-wage-nears-5...
Meanwhile lots of people complain about getting forced out ... I'd say those complaints are probably justified.
Also keep in mind that "average wage" is among those who work. Since the participation rate in the US is about 60% ... the remaining 40% doesn't even usually have average wage.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#63She's jumping to conclusions. Lots of people enjoy living in camper vans and RVs. It's a fun, cheap, and adventurous way to live. I know people who own a house in a ski town, and they'll take off for weeks at a time living out of their camper van. TBH there's a good chance they make more money than the author.
There's a massive, massive, huge difference between voluntarily taking an extended trip in your 'camper van' (which is probably a $50k+ Mercedes or similar if the owners "own a house in a ski town") and having to live in a shitty, broken down RV as a home.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#64I live in the area, and I actually have calculated how much an upper middle class existence would cost for a family of 3. $90k or so. Upper middle class mortgage from 2012, taxes, one midrange car loan, medical insurance, utilities, food, other insurance, one decent vacation a year. Pretty good lifestyle, all in all. As a family of 3 you don’t even have to work that hard to earn this amount in Seattle area. So I have…
You do realize earning $90K a year in Seattle is a take home paycheck of $67,500. Plus your assumptions are whack.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm rea…
> but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. WTF???? Where the hell does your money go? I felt _very_ comfortable when I was making $75k and living in lower Manhattan walking distance from my job near wall street, in a market rate apartment I easily found. And I participated in the culture of going out all the time, and built up modest 401k savings. Really, where on earth d…
Were you saving for retirement at the time? I'm pretty conservative with spending, but when you consider you should be putting away at least 18k/year (presumably via 401k, + employer match) if you ever expect to retire, and in manhattan you'll probably be spending at least 1500k/month for rent, plus you've got to pay for food and transportation...
$90k/year in NYC pre-tax -> ~$60k/year in NYC post-tax. State and local taxes hit hard when they're a combined 10%ish.
Out of that $60k, you'll probably be spending at least $20k on rent alone. Factor in utilities and you're getting closer to $22k total for the year. So we're already down to $38k tops.
Food is going to cost you at least $200/month if you've got a decent diet, your work doesn't provide food for you, etc. In Manhattan I'd be impressed if you could get that low, because stuff tends to be a lot more expensive here, but it's probably possible if you're frugal. So after food you're hitting $35k left over.
Transportation: most of us don't work in LES, the nexus of cheap housing in Manhattan below 90th. Most people work in FiDi or Midtown, and rent is expensive there, so either you're spending a lot more on housing, splitting a bedroom with someone to hit the $1500/month price point, or commuting in from an outer borough. Regardless if you're living in the city you probably use the subway sometimes... so let's take $130/month out for an unlimited subway pass. If you commute both ways 5 days a week you're basically even on pay-per vs. unlimited, and hopefully you leave your apartment on weekends, so it's probably worth it. So you're now at $33k left over.
Now let's take that $18k/year out for retirement, since the USA will let you starve on the street if you hit 65 without savings and Social Security is not a replacement for retirement savings. Now we're at $15k after the fact. So you've got $15k a year to: 1) save for a down payment on a house/apartment down the line (unless you want to be a renter for life) 2) big-ticket non-regular expenses, like buying furniture, clothes, traveling 3) maintain a 6-month safety buffer in a relatively liquid form (so... 30k to cover rent/food if you lose your job?) 4) medical expenses 5) saving for children, college, pets, a car, etc. down the line 6) luxuries like going out to eat, getting a drink/coffee with friends, or a gym membership
If your rent is closer to $2k/month (if, for instance, you want to live alone in a decent apartment) you'll have $9k left over for this. God forbid you have to dump $400/month on student loans, which is easy to rack up even if you went to a state school.
Yeah I guess it's possible, though it looks to me like your budget is going to be pretty tight the minute you start saving responsibly for retirement. I've got more wiggle room because my job pays more than $90k, but I definitely have a fear of a huge medical expense or getting fired from my job.
Anyway, I'm curious if you have a different perspective on this. Do you think things like going to the dentist/eye doctor/yearly physicals are luxuries? $75k sounds brutal in lower Manhattan, but maybe I'm not seeing something. Was this in the 90s/early 2000s or something?
Also, I completely agree that if you're making good money you still need to have morals. But please don't conflate my point of "NYC is expensive" with "bullshit" just because I try to be financially responsible. I think you might have a good argument here but there's no need to resort to insulting words and ad hominem attacks.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree! Here's a better data point, where the Seattle mayor says as much (while announcing $100 million investment in affordable housing because there is so little). “Too many long-time residents are getting locked out and pushed out of Seattle,” Durkan said in a statement. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-t... That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech…
> That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech companies in the world to your town. Available housing declines, it takes far too long in the feedback cycle for new housing to be built, and you've made the city marginally worse for anyone who isn't a tech worker. On the other hand, your city gets a ton more wealthy and existing homeowners essentially win the lottery.
Sounds terrible for urban planning and quality of life.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. There is a huge difference in having bought just three or four years ago versus now. The median price in the city has skyrocketed to $777k and on the Eastside it's just short of $1 million. Even in Shoreline, I don't see anything for under $400k on Redfin. "Just north of Seattle" used to mean Shoreline or Lake Forest Park. These days, it's the Alderwood side of Lynnwood and almost up to Paine Field. (Also, th…
We bought about two years ago and live in Wallingford. It's starting to get crazy but there are still reasonable places to be had, especially as you get into summer. Seems to work out, and we're very happy with the area.
Gotta love Wallingford.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does “just North of Seattle” mean? What city/neighborhood? And more importantly when did you buy it?
Agreed. There is a huge difference in having bought just three or four years ago versus now. The median price in the city has skyrocketed to $777k and on the Eastside it's just short of $1 million. Even in Shoreline, I don't see anything for under $400k on Redfin. "Just north of Seattle" used to mean Shoreline or Lake Forest Park. These days, it's the Alderwood side of Lynnwood and almost up to Paine Field. (Also, th…
No offense, but there's only so specific I'm going to get about my income with a bunch of people on ycombinator.... Hackernews if you prefer. I'm not throwing the specifics around the internet, at all =)
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#69She's jumping to conclusions. Lots of people enjoy living in camper vans and RVs. It's a fun, cheap, and adventurous way to live. I know people who own a house in a ski town, and they'll take off for weeks at a time living out of their camper van. TBH there's a good chance they make more money than the author.
There's a massive, massive, huge difference between voluntarily taking an extended trip in your 'camper van' (which is probably a $50k+ Mercedes or similar if the owners "own a house in a ski town") and having to live in a shitty, broken down RV as a home.
Of course, but the author didn't talk to them at all, and doesn't know anything about their situation except that they got out of the Uber at a van.
Since they were Ubering around town instead of driving the van, I would assume they're probably not poor.
But we'll never know because the "journalist" was too busy listening to music to find out the facts.
Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
In seattle there are tons of people living in vans. at the grocery store near my house on the east side, i see rvs in the parking lot of the grocery. they go somewhere in the night. in seattle, south of the stadiums there are rvs on side streets, just like this story. even in kirkland there was an rv on the street with a suspicious looking bucket behind it. I think living in your rv is more common than you might expe…
Yes, a lot of people live in vans or on the streets. The issue is saying that's the new middle class. That's the part that's not at all true. Most people living in a sketchy RV by the stadium are not 9-5 office workers who are priced out of the city.
Good point, I guess the article says basically because they were clean, acted nicely, paid their bill and got groceries via lyft/uber and got out into an rv, they were middle class. Middle class should not conflate with reasonable human being who functions in society should it? That is incredible classist, anti blue color and anti poor people. You could be living on welfare and behave that way of course.
Now that you raised my awareness, I think the article conflates 'middle class' with normal behavior in a developed country, and that feels offensive to me, because it seems to suggest that some poor people are not like that.