Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

thestranger.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 78 posts

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#51

Post by vanilla_nut »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #48
vanilla_nut wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm rea…

That’s not “salary before tax”, that’s $90k _net_, as in, living off the savings or $90k in post tax income. But it also has fairly generous budgets for groceries ($2k/mo) and one $7k vacation a year, and real estate taxes as of 2018, with house value more than doubled. I calculated this just to see whether I have to work. Turns out I don’t, but I work anyway.

Oh my gosh I'm terribly sorry, I totally misinterpreted what you meant. 90k post-tax before saving for college/retirement sounds, sadly, very right for Seattle today-- since your model uses 2012 housing prices, I'm not sure I even want to think about what it would be using 2018 housing prices.

However, the exercise of calculating those numbers out was still very interesting -- particularly the fact that I pay close to 2x the taxes of a Seattle-ite as a New Yorker. Holy cow, state and local taxes take a huge chunk out of my pay. I really wonder what NYS/NYC do with those taxes... but perhaps more importantly, how does Seattle get by without state/local taxes? Who pays for public transit subsidies? I guess it must come from property taxes? Boy I wish NYC charged more property taxes, especially since metropolis properties are largely owned by the very, very rich and even with a respectable tech salary I'll likely never own property in the city ever.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#52

Post by vanilla_nut »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #47
vanilla_nut wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm rea…

I think the implication of 1 car loan is that the purchases will be staggered, so you're only in debt for one car at a time. It's definitely possible for a family to spend $3-5k on a vacation, but it's also possible to spent waaaayyyy less than that (mostly by not flying somewhere)

That certainly makes more sense. But I suppose we then need to factor in maintenance/inspection costs (probably at least a couple thousand a year) + gas costs if we want to be really thorough :)

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#53

Post by throwaway84742 »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #51
throwaway84742 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not “salary before tax”, that’s $90k _net_, as in, living off the savings or $90k in post tax income. But it also has fairly generous budgets for groceries ($2k/mo) and one $7k vacation a year, and real estate taxes as of 2018, with house value more than doubled. I calculated this just to see whether I have to work. Turns out I don’t, but I work anyway.

Oh my gosh I'm terribly sorry, I totally misinterpreted what you meant. 90k post-tax before saving for college/retirement sounds, sadly, very right for Seattle today-- since your model uses 2012 housing prices, I'm not sure I even want to think about what it would be using 2018 housing prices. However, the exercise of calculating those numbers out was still very interesting -- particularly the fact that I pay close t…

Keep voting for tax-and-spend politicians, and sky is the limit in terms of taxes. There are always creative ways to piss money away.

But to emphasize once again, this is upper middle class, with very little compromise. Not everyone has to live like this. Not everyone has to pay $10k/yr in property taxes or spend $2k/mo on food, or budget $1500/mo in health insurance/out of pocket costs. We factored in inviting people over, etc. Basically little to no change in lifestyle.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#54

Post by debatem1 »

techsupporter wrote: post #37
enraged_camel wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does “just North of Seattle” mean? What city/neighborhood? And more importantly when did you buy it?

Agreed. There is a huge difference in having bought just three or four years ago versus now. The median price in the city has skyrocketed to $777k and on the Eastside it's just short of $1 million. Even in Shoreline, I don't see anything for under $400k on Redfin. "Just north of Seattle" used to mean Shoreline or Lake Forest Park. These days, it's the Alderwood side of Lynnwood and almost up to Paine Field. (Also, th…

We bought about two years ago and live in Wallingford. It's starting to get crazy but there are still reasonable places to be had, especially as you get into summer. Seems to work out, and we're very happy with the area.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#55

Post by drak0n1c »

dmcdm wrote: post #27
jerkstate wrote: post #10

I've heard a lot lately about people who avoid many expenses, including rent, in order to save a lot from decent jobs and retire early. If the author of this blog post had talked to them, maybe conclusions could have been drawn.

Yeah, it seems likely the author is just in that majority class of people who cannot conceive of any living arrangement outside the conventional stick-and-mortar dwelling bound to property or rent. That is, after all, what the ``American Dream'' of the past 100 years-or-so was built upon.

The Stranger is a notorious left-wing tabloid that loves to pick fights with the rest of the city, especially its more centrist rival, the Seattle Times. Stranger articles are consistently slanted with a pessimistic view of anything that doesn't help make life luxuriously comfortable for the 5% who choose to lead alternative lifestyles.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#58

Post by fleitz »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #32
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't make 250k, my wife's income included, and we own a home just north of Seattle. I bus it in and she drives to her job in Ballard. That must be some new hipster trend, 'cause that ain't forced =[

If it isn't some hipster trend, they should hit up some Seattle companies... not to be crass, but in the past week I've had a few recruiters from there write me about interesting (and probably better paying compared to here) job opportunities that I've had to turn down because I'm 1) not very interested in moving to the US right now, and 2) somewhat rooted here in Toronto at the moment. Unrelated to the last bit, but…

Also... largely by choice.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#59

Post by galdosdi »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #46
throwaway84742 wrote: post #40

I live in the area, and I actually have calculated how much an upper middle class existence would cost for a family of 3. $90k or so. Upper middle class mortgage from 2012, taxes, one midrange car loan, medical insurance, utilities, food, other insurance, one decent vacation a year. Pretty good lifestyle, all in all. As a family of 3 you don’t even have to work that hard to earn this amount in Seattle area. So I have…

Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm rea…

> but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here.

WTF???? Where the hell does your money go? I felt _very_ comfortable when I was making $75k and living in lower Manhattan walking distance from my job near wall street, in a market rate apartment I easily found. And I participated in the culture of going out all the time, and built up modest 401k savings.

Really, where on earth does your money go?

I hate hearing bullshit like this because at the same time, so much evil that goes on does so because people "gotta make a living" ... Well, no, wasting so much money is a choice, not a need. And if you don't control it it will expand to consume any amount of income.

I used to know sales guys who made 7 figures but still fretted about money and did desperate shady shit at work to make more money, and treated it no different than a starving man stealing a loaf of bread for his family. Disgusting. Radix malorum est cupiditas, my friends.

Re: Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

#60

Post by smoyer »

whoisjuan wrote: post #11

This is a bullshit story for sure. Anyone who lives in Seattle knows this is simply not true. If you move south to Kent or Tacoma you will find a lot of places with a decent rent. Same if you start moving north to Shoreline and above. Those places are not far from Seattle. If you live in a freaking RV in downtown that's definitely your choice.

I think it's also a mistake to think that someone living in an RV is homeless: a) Is an RV any less a home than a mobile home in a trailer park? b) More people are opting for a nomadic lifestyle that combines the advantage of working anywhere with the ability to "see the world".

I also think that finding a dead-end street full of RVs near down-town Seattle might mean there's not a convenient Wal-Mart parking lot or a campground close enough to the center of the action. With the huge increase in campground prices, I'd probably be looking for safe, free parking if I was RVing full-time.

Post reply on HN