Game Workers Unite • Hacker News Board

Re: Game Workers Unite

#51

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

cmalloc wrote: post #36

ginko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which side are you on?

I don't think the grandparent's point is an issue of sides. It's more of a problem of gathering a useful heuristic of an engineer's performance. Given a variety of every day engineering tasks, how can you know exactly the difficultly of a person's work short of having done it yourself? I believe that experience is the answer in some cases, but others it is not. As another poster stated, it could also be done by worki…

That's basically my take. A lot of evaluation is properly subjective and qualitative. Both bosses staring at deadlines and union negotiators clamoring for paper trails and predefined metrics are going to be bad for the industry and therefore workers, at least in the long run.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#52

Post by walshemj » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

brann0 wrote: post #18

ugh123 wrote: post #12

Consider some of the negative affects of unions when working alongside low and high performers in technology: - Protection for under performers alongside high performers. Difficult or darn near impossible to terminate employment. Ability to enforce performance evaluation and plans could be killed by the union. Common in teacher unions. - Without being able to measure performance, pay may be solely based on tenure, no…

That, sir, is just FUD. The dangerous type. Unions protect workers from being exploited and abused. If you're not happy with how some employee performs, you can still fire him in place. But be ready to prove it. No more firing people on a whim just because. If game industry isn't sustainable without exploitation, then we need it to adapt, and not the other way around.

Unions are like lawyers members get representation irrespective of guilt or innocence.

Yes a Union cant stop some one being fired if they are guilty of Gross misconduct but they can make sure people don't get fired for say accusing a manger for unwanted touching or to make wahy for the CEO's nephew.

For example I bet James Danmore had no advice before his internal hearings that lead to his firing.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#53

Post by walshemj » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #20

brann0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, sir, is just FUD. The dangerous type. Unions protect workers from being exploited and abused. If you're not happy with how some employee performs, you can still fire him in place. But be ready to prove it. No more firing people on a whim just because. If game industry isn't sustainable without exploitation, then we need it to adapt, and not the other way around.

> But be ready to prove it. How do you prove that an employee took two weeks to find a bug that should have taken one day to find? How do you prove that writing a domain-specific language was a bad decision compared to defining a complex XML schema? How do you prove that an engineer is bad at explaining technical concepts?

Properly done 121's and APR's

Re: Game Workers Unite

#54

Post by makotech222 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

Meph504 wrote: post #49

I see a lot of people arguing about how unions protect workers, and in some cases that is true, but in my experience many have been corrupted. You only have to look at the coal workers, steel workers, and several other unions, that's leadership has been corrupted, and serve their own interest at the expense of everyone else. Additionally, things like agency fees, where even if you work somewhere with a Union, and you…

Nice propaganda, dude. We all 'hear' stories like this, but in reality, if you have any experience with people who are actually in unions, its nothing but good. And unions are the only ones pushing back against government cuts to things like education and medicaid.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#55

Post by 49531 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

Meph504 wrote: post #49

I see a lot of people arguing about how unions protect workers, and in some cases that is true, but in my experience many have been corrupted. You only have to look at the coal workers, steel workers, and several other unions, that's leadership has been corrupted, and serve their own interest at the expense of everyone else. Additionally, things like agency fees, where even if you work somewhere with a Union, and you…

Half of what you just said is neoliberal anti-union propaganda. A lot of people in blue collar unions get a ton of value from them. Teamsters and Boilermakers have rights protected by their unions. Yea unions have lost battles or become corrupted, but they're leaders are also elected. What you think your CEO is going to be any better?

Then there are also unions for more middle to higher class groups. Writers unions, actors, professional athletes, teachers.

Unions exist to fight for labor's rights.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#56

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:19 PM UTC

wonton2 wrote: post #42

humanrebar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But be ready to prove it. How do you prove that an employee took two weeks to find a bug that should have taken one day to find? How do you prove that writing a domain-specific language was a bad decision compared to defining a complex XML schema? How do you prove that an engineer is bad at explaining technical concepts?

You could use the exactly these arguments for union and against. But in modern justice systems you are innocent until proven guilty, simply so anyone cannot just scream witch and have someone burned.

Getting laid off isn't getting buried, though. Getting a crappy raise isn't going to jail.

I do think employees need organization and culture to negotiate better in the short term and manage health and career in the long term. But I don't see evidence that either the employer or the union leadership have the right incentives to meet those needs.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#57

Post by walshemj » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #9

canthonytucci wrote: post #7

Why only game workers? Why not software workers/codewriters in general? I'd prefer something closer to SAG than the auto workers union personally.

Generally software engineers have a better pay(30-50%) and work-life balance than the game industry as a whole. While the tech is similar the project cycles are usually quite different so I don't know if one-size-fits-all would get splintered by different concerns.

Actually in the UK this is the case Prospect represents all the grades in game dev as it merged with BECTU recently

Re: Game Workers Unite

#58

Post by briandear » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:22 PM UTC

49531 wrote: post #50

ttoinou wrote: post #24

I have read the whole website and failed to see one concrete example of action that the union could take to make game-industry employees' life better Game Workers Unite is a broad-reaching organization that seeks to connect pro-union activists, exploited workers, and allies across borders and across ideologies in the name of building a unionized game industry. Even compatible with the libertarian ideology :p ?

All unions have concrete ways to make people's lives better. That's why they exist. This website glosses over them but they are pretty basic. Things like open salaries, control over agile process, overtime for on-call, overtime pay for crunch times, more control over hiring / firing.

Why would I want my salary to be the same as everyone else? If I am better than the next person and I am a better negotiator, why should my salary be identical to the lazy fuck that has the same number of years of experience?

The mistake of these Marxist organizations is that they assume that workers are interchangeable parts. Maybe on an assembly line that is true, but engineering software or hardware or designing things? You can train someone to install a windshield in a Ford plant. You can’t really train someone in problem solving or creativity.

I am an individual; I am not a member of a “collective.”

Re: Game Workers Unite

#59

Post by briandear » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:26 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #9

canthonytucci wrote: post #7

Why only game workers? Why not software workers/codewriters in general? I'd prefer something closer to SAG than the auto workers union personally.

Generally software engineers have a better pay(30-50%) and work-life balance than the game industry as a whole. While the tech is similar the project cycles are usually quite different so I don't know if one-size-fits-all would get splintered by different concerns.

If the game industry is so rough, then why don’t workers quit and go work in non-game software or design? It’s because they CHOOSE to work on games and there are a lot of people that are willing to take lower pay and tougher conditions because they want to work in gaming.

The implication being made that game devs are some kind of sweatshop slaves is ridiculous.

Re: Game Workers Unite

#60

Post by Broken_Hippo » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

ugh123 wrote: post #12

Consider some of the negative affects of unions when working alongside low and high performers in technology: - Protection for under performers alongside high performers. Difficult or darn near impossible to terminate employment. Ability to enforce performance evaluation and plans could be killed by the union. Common in teacher unions. - Without being able to measure performance, pay may be solely based on tenure, no…

That's only if you are speaking of protection without procedure to allow the employee to improve or checking to see if there is a medical reason (including mental health issues). Otherwise, no. This simply isn't true. You can still let employees go because they aren't actually doing their job, just like you can still let employees go for bad attendance, among other things. Unsurprisingly, the call center I worked at had high turnover (both employees quitting and getting fired) before and after it became unionized. But it does make it harder for employers to use these excuses willy-nilly.

"Could be killed by a union".. yes, or they could be killed by corporate policy or management that lets rules slide for employees they like.

Your example of teachers unions is a bad one, as they often get villified. Yet, we know there are multiple reasons for a so-called "underperforming" teacher, multiple solutions that help, and the fact that one has to be able to replace the teacher if you let them go, all complicating the issue.

"Pay may be solely based on tenture, not skill" Note your use of "may be". Tenure-only pay is often used for jobs that you can't measure the skill of one person against another: Factory jobs, for example. These often still have a pay range, giving more for folks with education than those without, for example. What changes is generally transparency: Skill measures and the evaluation of those skills needs to be communicated to employees in ways they can meet and/or improve them. In addition, these same issues happen outside of unions as well.