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The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

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Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#41
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were other factors at work with Rudd's removal. The mining tax was the last act in a long play of dropping promises, reneging on commitments and policy backflips. I agree with this The mining tax was a disaster and, in it's original form, was reverse nationalism by stealth. The government was going to tax profits above 6% with a 40% 'super tax' - terminology straight from a Marxist script. They were then going…

The tax was a great idea, and only hated by mining companies and people who happened to believe everything they see on TV. Most other big mining countries (Canada, Brazil, etc...) are also thinking about bringing in a mining tax like this. All Australians deserve returns from the investment, not just the tiny number of miners, who earn ridiculous sums of money.

[deleted]

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#42
post #36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but if the average Australian owes 1.6 times their annual salary, and house prices are 6X income, and they also have 2 years income locked into superannuation for their retirement (go boomers!), then things could go bad. Ask an American, English, Irish, Greek, Icelandic, or Japanese poster.

I don't understand what you are saying, but it seems to me you are confusing cause and effect. Yeah, but if the average Australian owes 1.6 times their annual salary, and house prices are 6X income, and they also have 2 years income locked into superannuation for their retirement (go boomers!), then things could go bad Yes, if you have a high level of debt and things go wrong then it's not a great place to be. But th…

The two things that could cause Chinese demand to collapse is war, or a people's revolution. Both will be very very bloody, and you would worry about other things than just property value or annual salaries.

Be afraid for your life, no matter where on the globe you live.

As a Taiwanese, I always feel that tension on the bead, that possibility that either World War 3 or the world's largest and bloodiest popular uprising would erupt before my eyes, perhaps on the back of some trivial issue, like denying China the ore that it wants.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#43
The key issue for me here is that Australia's not getting the same infrastructure projects that China's African resource partners are getting (eg roads, schools, hospitals.) Australia's probably getting more money instead.

For example: "Abuja — The Chinese government has concluded arrangements to spend about $50 billion on development of infrastructure in Nigeria through SINOSURE, the Export Credit Guarantee Agency of China." http://allafrica.com/stories/200803310705.html

"Of some 900 projects China built in Africa, more than half are aimed at improving local people's livelihoods." http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2010-07/04/content_20416315....

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#44
post #22

"A 20-year-old off the street can come up to the Pilbara and earn A$92,000 a year," says Boxy. The median household income in Australia is A$67,000. Talk about inflationary pressures.

What's the catch? I mean do they actually have trouble finding people to do these jobs?

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#45
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you are saying, but it seems to me you are confusing cause and effect. Yeah, but if the average Australian owes 1.6 times their annual salary, and house prices are 6X income, and they also have 2 years income locked into superannuation for their retirement (go boomers!), then things could go bad Yes, if you have a high level of debt and things go wrong then it's not a great place to be. But th…

The two things that could cause Chinese demand to collapse is war, or a people's revolution. Both will be very very bloody, and you would worry about other things than just property value or annual salaries. Be afraid for your life, no matter where on the globe you live. As a Taiwanese, I always feel that tension on the bead, that possibility that either World War 3 or the world's largest and bloodiest popular uprisi…

The two things that could cause Chinese demand to collapse is war, or a people's revolution. Both will be very very bloody, and you would worry about other things than just property value or annual salaries.

Yes, that's my view too.

I don't think it's possible to hedge against the collapse of China. The effects are just so unpredictable.

For example, the traditional hedge in times of crisis is to move money into some kind of physical reserve, eg gold. Increasingly people try and hedge at a macro level by buying into gold producing companies instead of the physical object itself. Ironically, that would mean increased demand for Australia's Gold companies - so money might be reallocated from Australian iron ore companies like BHP Billion & Rio Tinto to Australian gold mining companies like umm..... BHP Billion & Rio Tinto.

Now I'm not saying this would happen - just making the point that it's difficult to predict exactly what would occur.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#46
"My total salary and superannuation is A$145,000 a year, and when I'm in the Pilbara I don't have to put my hand in my pocket. I have a house in the city and an investment property and a 1972 Falcon pickup. I couldn't have had this life without mining."

and devastating the environment (and human and animal health) with all the land-clearing, power consumption, water consumption, massive pollution and toxic waste that comes with this and connected industries.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#47
I worked in the Pilbara for one of the big miners in an 'automated' laboratory for a couple of years after graduating. AMA.

Couple of quick points for anyone tempted to make the move: As an employee you get to interact with some pretty amazing tech, but most of it is created by other firms. Direct employees typically end up operating, maintaining and fixing things when they break. It's a great place to get hands on experience solving problems under time pressure. If you want to work heavily in the code base of automated robots/ trucks / trains, find a firm that does the contracting work to work for.

Secondly, don't do it just for the money, the job becomes your life. The article wasn't really about employee benefits but they did mention a salary without saying exactly what it was for.

Michael, after 35 years earns 145,000 p.a. including superannuation.A typical truck driver on a FIFO (fly in fly out) roster will fly up to the mine and work 7 12.5 hour day shifts, followed by 7 12.5 hour night shifts, and then fly back to the city to recover for a week (6 1/2 days). This is repeated about 17 times a year.

14days * 12.5hour shift * 17 stints = 2975 hours. $145, 000 / 2975 = approx AU$48 dollars per hour, including super. For that 20 year old on $92,000 it works out about $31 an hour, assuming the same roster. getting that job is not exactly easy either. The money is not bad, especially since you have nowhere to spend it on while at the mine, but the guys who do this long term have it in their blood and live to work at the mine.

Your social and dating life ( if you have one at all) gets fairly messed up on that roster, and fatigue from night shift can get to you after awhile.

Fun Fact: The mines tend to prefer female truck drivers as they are more gentle on the equipment.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#48
I know this is not exactly a new phenomenon for those who live in mining areas (northwestern Canada, Australia, etc.) but I found it interesting when going on a trip in the Outback that 3 of the men with us were miners (one from Canada, one from the UK, one from Australia) who do the tough mining tour of duty for part of the year and then travel for fun the rest of the year, rinse repeat.

It's an odd life.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#49
post #4

It's pretty interesting to see how intertwined China is with Australia. If you ever want to short China, your best bet is to target Australia which already has a bit of a property bubble, mining companies that are dependent on Chinese demand, and a currency that is buoyed by commodity prices. If China is indeed a bubble (at least in the medium-term) Australia is going to experience a world of hurt.

I don't see how China's demand for commodities could be a bubble.

They are building in huge volumes, but they have a huge volume of people. There is a middle class developing. Check out Hans Rosling's talks about it.

There may be a temporary bubble in the stock market, but China is undergoing an incredible shift towards becoming North American in every way. Beijing is the best example of this - the entire city has been bulldozed and redeveloped in a North American big box way. Shanghai is even further 'ahead'.

Traditionally Chinese have been very conservative with spending, preventing quick economic growth. Credit cards are almost non-existent. You pre-pay your bills, even electricity! But for some reason - perhaps the Internets media influence, perhaps the one child policy, people are now spending money quickly. Starbucks is extremely popular and more expensive than in Toronto, NYC or SF! For the price of a coffee you could easily get a great meal with a few drinks, yet coffee shops are filled.

If all of it is a bubble - it is so firmly entrenched at ground level that the momentum of this bubble will burst through and last for decades. New industries are developing rapidly. The insurance industry was almost non-existent a decade ago, and is growing quickly in different ways there.

One thing is part of what is fuels the growth is international companies spending a lot of money trying to establish new business in China. These companies are risking money and bringing expertise into a really unknown market and often losing money. China in the end benefits as they just sit their with their vast market and allow foreign companies to try to create new industries. If anything starts doing really well, the government could always regulate that industry and take it over themselves.

I don't see anything stopping both China and India both developing a large middle class. That will snowball growth for decades. Premium brands will likely dominate - these folks want iPhones and Mercedes.

I think this Australian iron ore example is just the beginning of the scale at which we will see commodities shifting to China. I expect timber to happen at an enormous scale as their foresting practices seem quite unsustainable.

Re: The Deal Is Simple. Australia Gets Money, China Gets Australia

#50
post #21
post #13

I'm not sure of what the point this article is trying to raise? Is it that Australia is not in recession? Is it some sort of suggestion of xenophobia on the part of Australians? Australians have all seen this before in the 1980's when the Japanese were buying real estate, companies and generally splashing cash around. I think this time around most people are more relaxed about it, and a feeling of 'make hay while the…

I have to agree with you. The title itself feels like the author's taking a biast stand that s/he wants to vent. But the article itself is completely indecisive. Almost as if the author wants to speak ill of Chinese hands in Australian soil, but can't. Either way, I found the article's facts interesting. I don't think many people know the scale of these operations, not the history of similar events with the Japanese.…

If you want a fascinating readup on the impact of Japanese investment in Australia, the effects and outcomes, read up on the Multi-Function polis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Polis

In short, it was a plan to build a high-tech city in order to better integrate Australian-Japan relations. In the end, a complete farce, but at the time regular front-page news. It did expose an ugly side to foreign investment in Australia, but things are very much different now - probably as a direct result of nothing very much at all occuring from all the Japanese investment. Mostly the Japanese did their dough, went bankrupt and left behind some big shopping centres, resorts and golf courses which Australians of all colours continue to use and enjoy to this day.

A good companion would be the re-reading of the Micheal Crichton novel "Rising Sun" - written at the peak of the 'Japan to take over the world' thought bubble, before the Japan bubble popped.

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