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Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

blogs.reuters.com

161–170 of 226 posts

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I generally agree that we've shifted things around so that most workers now are generally a bit better off than before in many ways. I think they could be better off still under alternative systems. I was however responding, primarily, to your apparent argument that anyone criticising capitalism can only be a Soviet-era state-supporting "communist".

> your apparent argument that anyone criticising capitalism can only be a Soviet-era state-supporting "communist" That would be a highly creative way of summarising my post. My problem with the paper was that it started what was supposed to be a historical research with a slogan-like claim that a particular ideology propagated it (literally the first sentence). As in, there was no misunderstanding, no misinterpretati…

I don't think the quote intended to imply that Capitalism propagated a myth. I think the quote intended to imply that the subject of the myth was Capitalism.

E.g. suppose I said "One of bowling's most enduring myths is that wearing a bowler's hat improves your score". Does this imply that a cabal of bowlers spread propaganda? Or simply that the myth exists within the bowling community.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#162
post #112

Ugh. The paper reeks of political agenda. The very first sentence is: > One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. What about the Communism? Why would they spread this durable myth? Because I remember hearing the same story in the Soviet school. The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject. Most of the sources are relat…

"The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject." Here's some food for thought: If you don't work an additional hour, because the economic environment you are in has provided you no meaningful economic task that would be worth doing in that hour, are you better off than someone who does have that opportunity and works for benefit in that time? It's dif…

It used to be said that you weren't a real woman until you lost a child.

The future is amazing (on average right now). That doesn't negate the value in considering ways in which the future has not improved upon the past.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#163
post #87
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of the fact that let's see the first time he gets an infection or disease or needs surgery given no vaccinations, antibiotics, or anesthetics.

When was the last time you got an infection or disease that would have struck you down without modern medicine? I never have. In fact if hospitals didn't exist and I never saw a doctor my entire life, I don't think anything would have changed. I don't expect to live much longer than 60 as it is. Most 14th century monarchs, in the brief glance I did on Wikipedia before my answer, lived to 55 or 60 or so before they di…

By the time you became a monarch you had usually already survived to adulthood (child kings existed but were the exception). This biases the statistics considerably.

FWIW: I’d have (probably) died from pneumonia at age 5 without modern medicine. In reality it was curable trivially.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $47,000 vs $56,000 for 2017 Ever tried to buy a (non fast-food) meal in Germany and in the US? Your purchasing power is way higher in Europe.

I disagree, the US famously has a low cost of living compared to developed nations in Europe. That includes everything from energy prices to housing prices to food prices. When adjusted for the higher US wages, that imbalance is even more dramatic. Take energy costs as one example. US natural gas prices are half that of Western Europe. Electricity costs are half or less that of Western Europe. In Germany, electricity…

The US also has famously high costs for education and healthcare.

The US is a great place to be if you are in prime working age with in-demand skills, no health problems, and no kids.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Whilst touring Neuschwanstein Castle and Biltmore Estate, what struck me: for all the luxurious art & fineries & service kings & tycoons enjoyed, what we consider basic necessities were hard to come by, if available at all, for even the super-rich. Sitting here in my study, I: teleconference with my team continent-wide, practically have more [e-]books than Vanderbilt's 25,000 volume library, enjoy a constant…

Very true to all of that. But the live-in servants have been replaced by external servants. People who are expected to be working when at 11pm I decide I want to eat a bite of food, yet are paid below what it takes to raise their own family and are working 2 jobs at once to make ends meet. The boundary between nobility and servitude is more blurry, and yes there are a lot more ways to rise out of servitude than 7 cen…

Excellent point. We've basically just outsourced the servants. I show up at one of a proliferation of restaurants, and expect cooks & servers at my beck-and-call. I set my thermostat, and expect someone will ensure the temperature remains to my liking with hardly a thought on my part. I open the tap, and clean water is carried thereto. A litany of robots (!) perform assorted household tasks which I minimally contribute to.

The point of this thread: today's "decent living conditions to the poor" are now significantly on par with then-"excellent service to the wealthy". Outright luxuries, scale & elegance which doesn't really contribute to sustenance, remain a defining difference, but are more a matter of "money to burn" than contributing to survival & prosperity.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#166
post #9

> In addition to relaxing during long holidays, the medieval peasant took his sweet time eating meals, and the day often included time for an afternoon snooze. I have serious doubts about this. Maybe someone could provide additional insight. I doubt all time not working the fields was "relaxing during long holidays". It would likely be spent on other chores. Food was likely not plentiful (when it is, population explo…

The fact that peasants did not work more hours is tied to the fact that they were agrarian laborers. Once you've brought in the harvest, what is there to do but lie around and wait until the end of winter? Indeed, "lie around" is most of what they did, and remaining inactive to lower their metabolism was actually a survival strategy to deal with the limited amount of food they had: burn fewer calories, eat fewer calories.

As the article notes, peasant life consisted of working only part of the year, with longer workdays during harvest season, and short work days (or no work at all) during the rest of the year. In some climates, like the Pyrenees and the Alps, people essentially "hibernated" during the winter: they stayed indoors, lived off their food stores, and expended as little energy as possible.

Citing Graham Robb's The Discovery of France: 'An official report on the Nièvre in 1844 described Burgundian day-laborers thusly: '“After making the necessary repairs to their tools, these vigorous men will now spend their days in bed, packing their bodies tightly together in order to stay warm and eat less food. They weaken themselves deliberately.” Entering this inactive state was a physical and economic necessity. Lowering the metabolic rate prevented hunger from exhausting supplies.'

The time that they spent not working was not some leisurely edifying "vacation" that they enjoyed as a luxury; for French peasants in the 1700's and 1800's, being inactive was a survival strategy.

The parent article paints the time spent remaining inactive in a romantic light, remarking that "the medieval peasant took his sweet time eating meals, and the day often included time for an afternoon snooze." The reality is probably closer to the fact that he probably risked starvation if he regularly engaged in any sort of vigorous activity (no surplus calories to burn on frivolities like dancing or sports or other active forms of recreation), and it's quite possible that the afternoon naps may have felt more like an obligation than an opportunity to "relax." Lying around all day doing "nothing" sounds less like a vacation and more like a prison sentence (quite literally, in the sense that it probably resembles the life that some people live inside of modern prisons, doing essentially nothing as they wait for the days to pass).

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your apparent argument that anyone criticising capitalism can only be a Soviet-era state-supporting "communist" That would be a highly creative way of summarising my post. My problem with the paper was that it started what was supposed to be a historical research with a slogan-like claim that a particular ideology propagated it (literally the first sentence). As in, there was no misunderstanding, no misinterpretati…

I don't think the quote intended to imply that Capitalism propagated a myth. I think the quote intended to imply that the subject of the myth was Capitalism. E.g. suppose I said "One of bowling's most enduring myths is that wearing a bowler's hat improves your score". Does this imply that a cabal of bowlers spread propaganda? Or simply that the myth exists within the bowling community.

It could be possible theoretically if not the context of the article. "We are asked to imagine" and so on.

But even if it were the case, the fact that the same idea was commonplace in the USSR means that it's not inherently connected to capitalism.

And, obviously, I am still wondering why people decided it was about capitalism vs. Communism.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Whilst touring Neuschwanstein Castle and Biltmore Estate, what struck me: for all the luxurious art & fineries & service kings & tycoons enjoyed, what we consider basic necessities were hard to come by, if available at all, for even the super-rich. Sitting here in my study, I: teleconference with my team continent-wide, practically have more [e-]books than Vanderbilt's 25,000 volume library, enjoy a constant…

But do you have unlimited access to wenches?

Enough so that Playboy went under.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#169
post #112

Ugh. The paper reeks of political agenda. The very first sentence is: > One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. What about the Communism? Why would they spread this durable myth? Because I remember hearing the same story in the Soviet school. The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject. Most of the sources are relat…

"The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject." Here's some food for thought: If you don't work an additional hour, because the economic environment you are in has provided you no meaningful economic task that would be worth doing in that hour, are you better off than someone who does have that opportunity and works for benefit in that time? It's dif…

Heh, your food for thought is a cherry picked, fairly detached piece of speculation.

Here's another equally meaningless "food for thought": we bring a native American from a thousand years ago to today. They go from a life of being very connected to their community, the environment, fairly plentiful sources of food, and so on, to a society where, statistically speaking, they have a high chance of living in poverty, being systematically discriminated against in ways that prevent them from pursuing education/employment/etc., facing substance abuse, being confined in meaningful ways to an arbitrarily defined "reservation", etc. etc.

Do you still expect tears and violent resistance if you try to send them back?

You can basically expand this thought experiment to most populations who are not upper middle class white people. Would you rather be born as a random Incan citizen, or a modern day coal miner in Peru?

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#170
post #112

Ugh. The paper reeks of political agenda. The very first sentence is: > One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. What about the Communism? Why would they spread this durable myth? Because I remember hearing the same story in the Soviet school. The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject. Most of the sources are relat…

"The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject." Here's some food for thought: If you don't work an additional hour, because the economic environment you are in has provided you no meaningful economic task that would be worth doing in that hour, are you better off than someone who does have that opportunity and works for benefit in that time? It's dif…

Make sure to show them some Elsagate videos, too.
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