Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#141

Post by tremon » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #120

rhcom2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The word 'capitalism' was invented by communists I don't think that is true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Etymology

From your own link: "The initial usage of the term "capitalism" in its modern sense has been attributed to Louis Blanc in 1850 ("What I call 'capitalism' that is to say the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others") and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1861 ("Economic and social regime in which capital, the source of income, does not generally belong to those who make it work through their labour").[22]:2…

socialist /= communist.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#142

Post by ionised » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #66

barrkel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would, FWIW.

Why? No HVAC, electricity, running potable hot water, limited literature, long delivery times.

Ruling a country and an army could be pretty attractive to some.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#143

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

_khau wrote: post #135

vadimberman wrote: post #58

Ugh. The paper reeks of political agenda. The very first sentence is: > One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. What about the Communism? Why would they spread this durable myth? Because I remember hearing the same story in the Soviet school. The paper does not make a real effort trying to consider different evidence and honestly investigate the subject. Most of the sources are relat…

Your second sentence is literally whataboutism. Why not address the point of the article instead of talking about communism, which nobody mentioned?

[deleted]

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#144

Post by John_KZ » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

Hendrikto wrote: post #6

The USA are abolishing themselves... > In Germany, an economic powerhouse, workers rank second to last in number of hours worked. Despite more time off, German workers are the eighth most productive in Europe, while the long-toiling Greeks rank 24 out of 25 in productivity. Work smart, not hard.

Depends on your definition of "smart". Germany undercut and closed down most factories from around Europe. Ask anyone you know in the EU, they'll tell you how things were going well in the 70s and how their country actually had a lot of manufacturing plants for electrical and mechanical equipment (fridges, car parts, machinery etc). Then, near the 70s, globalization hit hard.

It was still cheaper to produce locally, but German lobbies knew well that if they sold below cost, bribed government officials and pushed strong advertising campaigns , they'd manage to shut down the industry of Europe and make everyone reliant on their production.

Was it "smart"? I guess so, they fucked over everyone in Europe, and still do (the Euro was obviously the deathblow for South Europe and much of the East). But this has nothing to do with "working smart". If you visit germany you'll realize that the image of the hard-working, incorruptable, efficient German is just a lie.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#145

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #82

They paid less tax, too.

Until the 1200's, there was pretty much just the Geld in Europe (a land tax).

Because the geld was assessed on landowners, it only applied to free men who owned land, and thus serfs and slaves were exempt.

Later on the income tax got invented, and was generally 1/10 to the king. I wish I only paid 1/10 to the feds.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#146

Post by hn0 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

zeth___ wrote: post #22

What if it isn't a bug but a feature? Tired citizens are not engaged citizens, they don't have the energy to organize and push for their interests. Workers being less productive is a small price to pay for employers when all your productivity gains go to them anyway.

Oh, the joy of the marginalist supply and demand theorem!

Here's an excerpt of Alan Greenspan’s Feb. 26, 1997, testimony before the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee:

"The performance of the U.S. economy over the past year has been quite favorable. … Continued low levels of inflation and inflation expectations have been a key support for healthy economic performance. … Atypical restraint on compensation increases has been evident for a few years now, and appears to be mainly the consequence of greater worker insecurity. The willingness of workers in recent years to trade off smaller increases in wages for greater job security seems to be reasonably well documented. The unanswered question is why this insecurity persisted even as the labor market, by all objective measures, tightened considerably."

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#147

Post by refurb » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #120

rhcom2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The word 'capitalism' was invented by communists I don't think that is true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Etymology

From your own link: "The initial usage of the term "capitalism" in its modern sense has been attributed to Louis Blanc in 1850 ("What I call 'capitalism' that is to say the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others") and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1861 ("Economic and social regime in which capital, the source of income, does not generally belong to those who make it work through their labour").[22]:2…

Interesting didn't know that.

Interesting how it was first used in a disparaging way but today is a relatively neutral term.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#148

Post by megiddo » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

The comparison ignores the blistering daily poverty of a medieval peasant. This is not merely a lack of technology - that would be a historical argument.

But even basic amenities that could be easily built in this time period were difficult to come by. Entire villages might have to share a few pieces of furniture, like a stool.

These people may have had a lot of "time off", but they spent it in horrible poverty, many months of the year near starvation, even within the context of what was available to them in their own time.

I would hazard to say that many modern office workers rarely actually accomplish 40 hours of productive work in a given week. They may be physically present, but how often are they chatting, goofing off, or standing around waiting for an interaction. Modern business is built upon availability, not necessarily toil.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#149

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

Hendrikto wrote: post #6

The USA are abolishing themselves... > In Germany, an economic powerhouse, workers rank second to last in number of hours worked. Despite more time off, German workers are the eighth most productive in Europe, while the long-toiling Greeks rank 24 out of 25 in productivity. Work smart, not hard.

Average productivity in the economy is just ratio of hours worked to GDP. It doesn’t mean that all, or even most of the workers work harder or smarter. In countries like Germany, the high productivity industries pull the rest of the economy behind them. The German janitor is not likely to be any more productive that janitor in poorer countries, his wage is just higher than there, because the economy provides better job market, and so the companies must pay higher wages to find employees.

In countries like Greece or Poland, average worker does much more hours in a year, but it’s not because he is working less smart. It’s just the high productivity industries are simply not there, so he must work harder to earn the same money.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#150

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

megiddo wrote: post #148

The comparison ignores the blistering daily poverty of a medieval peasant. This is not merely a lack of technology - that would be a historical argument. But even basic amenities that could be easily built in this time period were difficult to come by. Entire villages might have to share a few pieces of furniture, like a stool. These people may have had a lot of "time off", but they spent it in horrible poverty, many…

> daily poverty of a medieval peasant

And death was omnipresent. Most of your kids would die in young age, folks around you were killed by random infections or flu regularly, and there was not much to look forward to in life.