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Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

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Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#91
post #20

The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. —Abraham Lincoln First, the only question that truly matters: Cui Bono? What industry made ~40% of their revenues from classified listings within the last decade? What industry has been slyly running hooker ads and profiting off prostitution for decades? What industry has been anti-Internet from the start? What industry has been running sensationalist,…

> and regulated by the health industry just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world.

That's not true. Don't know exactly the case in the Netherlands/Amsterdam, but it's not wide-Europe thing, and surely not 'most of the rest of the world'.

Other from that, it is a really great comment.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#92
post #84
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the government care about defending "the family unit?" That's not its job.

Part of the US government's stated purpose is to "promote the general welfare" of its people. The real questions are these: 1. What social effects does the proliferation of extramarital sex have? (I don't buy the flat assertion that it "destroys the family unit" -- and I know some polyamorists who would be downright incensed by that claim -- but it's got to have some effects. Let's see what they are.) 2. Are those so…

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that you think these are, in fact, the real questions reflects a peculiar understanding of secular, Western jurisprudence and the (theoretically) liberal Anglo-American and European intellectual heritage from which it arises, or one that is dangerously at odds with the lessons taught by that heritage.

First, prostitution and extramarital sex are not logically related, per se. Yes, plenty of married men purchase the services of prostitutes, but that has never a reason for which the criminalisation of prostitution has been contemplated here. Married men also do plenty of other things at odds with the ideals of a happy, honest and open marriage. Plenty of divorced men and bachelors visit prostitutes. Even if they didn't, the essence of the criminality of prostitution does not lie in the peripheral aspects of the clientele's personal life or social position. It arguably leads to "worse" policymaking outcomes for politicians to sleep with DC escorts, but the reason why it is illegal is not _because_ they are politicians. It's just illegal in general. It may be officially censurable within the legislative profession for that reason (an arrangement involving a particular code of conduct into which the politician entered voluntarily), but not in background law.

Our entire system of judicial thought is reliant on the idea that the state identifies and prosecutes things that are logically related in ways articulated by the applicable statute, and that the evidentiary relationship between the alleged crime and the statute on which the allegation is based is a fairly deductive one. To the extent that it actually functions (another discussion for another day), it would very quickly break down if prosecutorial "inferential" leaps or "strong inductive" claims based on certain statistical generalisations without definitive proof or direct connection were permitted to be made. The reason we prosecute driving while intoxicated is not because the driver is some shade of likely to be an alcoholic, and therefore a mean-spirited jerk (because he's drunk) that offends his family or roommates, thereby detracting from the overall common happiness and public welfare.

The presumption of innocence absent proof of guilt, and the concept of probable cause are both intimately related to this; this is why it is unreasonable, as a matter de jure, to say that a Craigslist ad with an image of a scantily clad woman and a phone number and reference to a "good time" represents an offer of prostitution unless it contains an explicit quid pro quo offer of sex for money. The fact that it is quite likely as a statistical matter should not enter into the picture if we are interested in conserving our liberal legal principles, to the extent that we have them as yet. We don't arrest people who look like the sort of people that deal drugs without establishing conclusively that they have actually done so, and we don't, generally, arrest women on the street who are "probably" street walkers unless they can be witnessed to be making offers of prostitution per se, or, more likely, gotten on some other technicality of ordinance (loitering, accosting pedestrians, etc.). Walking around in a skimpy outfit and looking attentive to passing cars is not in itself illegal based on what you might be up to if you're doing that.

Second, our legal and democratic heritage does not admit the possibility that government is qualified to determine or administer the vagaries of personal life. The idea that the government is going to formulate--and mandate, and enforce!--an idea of a "good" marriage, which presumptively forbids X or Y, is rather abhorrent when considered against the backdrop of centuries of common law and democratic development. The government can grant a divorce petition, dissolving a marriage license that it itself issued, not make you have a good marriage. Furthermore, as you rightly point out, there is at least one identifiable constituency of married people whose concept of marriage explicitly accepts what others might deem "extramarital" sex. These social mores are always a moving goalpost, especially in a more globally connected, flatter world of more numerous subcultures. Trying to take one account of virtue or the good life and promote it to universal institutional imposition through coercive force is a woefully misguided endeavour philosophically and a doomed endeavour practically.

Third: Historically and jurisprudentially, the notion underlying the phraseology, the formulation of "promote the general welfare" is quite different from the one that you have ascribed to it. In principle, the mission to promote the general welfare has principally to do with protecting citizens from foreign invasion and otherwise defending the territorial and political integrity of the country, regulating things that can lead to loss of life or limb, and, more recently, mitigating possible sources of financial peril stemming from legal misrepresentation and/or fraud (e.g. scams, undecipherable financial instruments and investment vehicles, etc.).

The government is not--and has never been--in the role of enforcing or bolstering the subjective, psychological "quality" of interpersonal relationships, or mitigating the emotional harm from ones that fail to meet the happiness threshold of one or more parties. Yes, there is family court, but the state's interest in child custody issues and the terms of divorce stems from a relatively narrow, technical preoccupation with financially equitable outcomes, as they relate to the subsequent quality of life and opportunities of the child and both (ex-)spouses. The courts' role there deals with the material effects of what happens to the actors when the particular family unit does break down, not with the prevention thereof.

There are plenty of other relationships whose failure or compromise can also have deleterious effects: psychologically taxing collegiate or supervisory work relationships, friendships that go south upon the revelation of deceit or betrayal, etc. It's not the government's place to legislate away all conceivably problematic dimensions of human existence, nor particularly feasible from a logistical standpoint.

Getting the government involved in the question of adultery is a slippery slope; why not also police lying (outside the sphere of commercial law and/or tort law)? If extramarital sex is harmful to the family unit and unconducive to the public welfare, why not throw people in prison for it, or worse? Causing people grief or anger, or any other emotion associated with a frowny face is also injurious to the public welfare in the aggregate; it is relatively straightforward to show that a certain population of unhappy people lead to "worse" (that is, less socially appealing) outcomes than happy ones.

Unless you're interested in moving in the direction of despotic theocracies, these are not the the real questions.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#93
Ironically even though Craigslist just about crippled the newspaper industry, these same newspapers have been running adult ads in the personal sections, in every major cities for years, ad how about the good old yelow pages that the escort services use to pay 15,000 a year to appear in. The problem is this, LE is going to keep using CL as an escape goat, while they have no real interest in catching pimps expoiting teens, they want to STALK MIDDLE AGE CONSENTING ADULTS IN PRIVATE, because of their moral witch hunt. We have street hookers in every city, they don't seem to concerned about them. On top of the sex worker being criminalized LE often calls her employer and landlord when they arrest her, its like being the victim of a hate crime, where you hated just because you exisit. We are not given the same sancation and protection under the law as everyne else, and they even wish us harm. Why are we such a threat, it seems if they went after the predators and pimps with the same ZEST that they go after these consenting adults, we might live in a nicer world. Also lets look at LE behavior, follow this newsfeed http://theproviderpage.com/news/TheProviderPage-News.php

Here you will see how the chief of police was handing out crack to street hookers and then expoitig them for sex in lue of going to jail and the 2 cops while arresting a women on a online sting, they took pics of her naked with their personal cell phones while she cried and begged to get dressed as they laughed at her. All sex workers are expoited, by their own persona plight, poverty, and how does society really think we will be safer if we become homeless and live on the street, don't you think we would be raped and become a target for violence because we have no shelter/safety. None of these MORAL People who want to save us from ourselves are creating any services or safety for these women. I just wonder why society seems to think its ok to treat a hooker anyway and that she gets what she deserves, she could easily be your mother, sister, aunt or child. Don't be so naive that you think this would never affect someone you know. The internet gave me the abilty to find safer, higher paying clients, that I see on my terms, without needing an agency to give half my money too. I can choose to see just 1 or 2 clients a day and am putting my daugter through college as a single mom. I am also creating http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ which I am creating to support my peers. Thanks for listening to my rant.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#94
See us at http://theproviderpage.com/cms/

While we oppose society's Moral Witch Hunt against us and laws that criminalize us, we are aware that escort providers must live in the real world. At it's best, that world disrespects and ostracizes us; at it's worst, it seeks to exploit and even harm us.

TheProviderPage.com is a site planned and paid for by a provider to offer a safe harbor from that world for my peers.

Whether your method of running your business includes being a "lot lizard", a "streetwalker", an escort working for a respectable agency, an escort working independently, an exclusive mistress who takes on only one client, or a dominatrix who specifically does not offer "escort" services, you are welcome here and will be treated with the respect often missing in the real world.

We believe adult providers can make the best choices for themselves without interference from law enforcement on the one hand nor do-gooders who want to "help" us against our will on the other hand.

If you need resources and support to run your business, you will find that here. If you choose to leave this business, we seek to provide you information on the best resources that can assist you transition to another lifestyle. We respect each provider's right to choose for herself.

We vehemently oppose all forms of human trafficking and child prostitution. The victims of these crimes deserve our compassion and support; those who exploit others in such a manner deserve severe punishment.

While much of this site is addressed to women, male providers are welcome also; our only criteria for membership is that you are a provider. All are welcome to read and use our site, but membership is for providers only.

Welcome from Bella

This site was commissioned by Bella for her fellow escorts.

Bella has been in the adult industry for over 25 years. She has owned and operated escort agencies and also worked as a independent escort; therefore she has consulted with the finest attorneys available over the past 25 years. Bella keeps up to date on laws and what is going on in the media (see our news feeds) .

Bella's hope is that others can learn from her experience. I hope that other escorts can empower themselves, understand the risks involved and have the tools to make their experiences safer, and for them to be able to find support and fellowship from other escorts. And I hope the escort wanting out of this lifestyle will find some resources here that will help her in her transition back to the main stream of society.

The only requirement for membership is that you are a legit escort with a good reputation that I can verify. We have just started our journey here on TheProviderPage and have many more great ideas coming soon, and we also value your opinion as a escort so please forward your suggestions/comments and we will take them into consideration.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#95
The same newspapers that Craigslist just about crippled have been running ads for yeas,and they where much more expensive, my escort service I use to own in St.Pete times I paid 12.000 a year to keep a 3 line ad up and I also use to pay the yellow pages 15 to 30,000 a year. The internet has giving me the abilty to be indpendent, no more agency drama,and I am able to get better clients, they pay more, I chose the respectful day time guys and only have to see 1 or 2 clients a day and I am also putting my daughter through college. LE is using craigslist as an escpae goat, because they really have no interest in stopping the pimps from exploiting the teenagers, but for some reason they are obsessed with what consenting adults do in private, they go beyond what is legal to arrest these women, and most of their cases would not make it to trail if these women had lawyers, they arrest escorts for just showing up for an appontment, even if they are not able to solicit the women for an illegal act, so they get her for not having a massage license or supsion of prostitution, heck they can't arrest you for suspsion of murder unless they can prove it but its ok to lock up a hooker. They also BULLY the john into snitching and it works because they are no criminals and do not know what to do if detained by police, I bet a drug dealer or gang member wouldn't let LE into bullying confssions out of them. I have bee reading in the news, we have a chief of police handing out crack to street level hooker and exploiting them for sex in lue of going to jail and we have 2 cops while arresting a women during an online sting, took pics of her with their personal sell phones while she was naked and crying and begging to get dress while they laughed at her. these articles are in the newspapers, and happen all the time. It seems if we stalked the predators and pimps with the same ZEST as we d the hooker then we might actually catch some real criminals. But the million dollar question is this, why does the general public believe its ok to treat a hooker any way they want and that she deserves it, what gives anyone the right to HATE us, just because we. exisit. I know LE even calls our employers and landlords after they arrest us, with no cause other than to get us out of their town, do you think we would be safer on the street, where we could become far game to be raped and beaten and we don't want to be regulated so we will have to work in brothels and give the brothel wners most of our money, Back n 2005 I owned a escort service in FL and I was incorpated and paid taxes. Many agencies such as myself are now being harassed and stalked by LE, but seems like if your a cop or governor Spitzer you don't get prosecuted and you can still be on CNN. I just woner who many of MY TAX dollars is LE going to use to STALK ME. Thanks For letting me Rant.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#96
Why is it if I place a personal ad on match.com and meet a uy for coffee and he turns out to be a salker that I can call LE for help. But if I place a adult ad and charge for my time and companiosnhip I can not get any assistance from LE if I need it. Ironically do you know what they do to the hookers once they sent them to jail. f they go to prison they usualy get raped by correctional offcers and even used for THEIR OWN PROSTITUION RING, as they are state property. We already have prrof that indoor prositution works, RI had a loophole from 1979 til 2009, they never charged anyone with human trafficking and only arrested street hookers in public and when the CL killer killed the girl in Boston he then wentto RI and robbed a women and she called LE reported it and that is why they catch him. LE does ot want cooperateion from hookersor Craiglsit they just want the keep the witch hunt going for their own personal campaign stradegy.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#97
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you lump prostitution with sex trafficking? Why do we have to make both legal? Just make sex with two consenting adults legal...and use all those cops who are stuck busting hookers...investigating complaints about sex traffickers.

Prostitution ranges essentially from crack addict street walkers up to 'chat' call girls who are frequently educated enough to maintain conversation with wealthy businessmen. It's exceptionally naive to think the Russian mob is going to start trafficking in university graduate hookers. What needs to be done is establish an agency to govern and regulate the sex trades, including the money handling. You want to be a pr…

maybe we should make your boss pay you through an agency, that will keep most of your money. It should be each women's right to conduct her work in private,, with her ouwn guidelines that she is comfortable with. You already have us with a agency in your exampe which means we could not be independents. I am sure most of my clients would not come to visit if I where in some shady agency or spa with someone counting the money. We are not cattel and we do not need anyone to monitor us, if you look at our orginal prostituion laws they where only created to stop a women from showing her wares in pubic. Nobody is trying to montor how you have sex or with who. Your example is making the government the pimps and then they would be the ones exploiting people. Why do you think sex workers are so dumb they need to be regulated, we are not all addicts and most of us our middle aged sigle moms. Many of us are supporting our whole famiies because our husbands have been laid off, and we have lost our homes in foreclosure, we are soccor moms, yor neighbors,, we could very well be your mother, sister, aunt, cousin or child. We only want to be decriminalized and have the same protection under the law. We want to stop being the vicitms of the worst HATE CRIME OF ALL. Hate just for being a sex worker.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#98
post #91
post #20

The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. —Abraham Lincoln First, the only question that truly matters: Cui Bono? What industry made ~40% of their revenues from classified listings within the last decade? What industry has been slyly running hooker ads and profiting off prostitution for decades? What industry has been anti-Internet from the start? What industry has been running sensationalist,…

> and regulated by the health industry just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world. That's not true. Don't know exactly the case in the Netherlands/Amsterdam, but it's not wide-Europe thing, and surely not 'most of the rest of the world'. Other from that, it is a really great comment.

It's been regulated in the Netherlands for decades, but is't only been entirely legal for a few years. It still hasn't completely stamped out illegal immigrants being forced to prostitute themselves though. These girls are afraid to be sent back to where they came from and they don't pay taxes so they're a lot cheaper (and more willing to do deviant things)

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#99
post #21

I hear quite often that prostitution would be a wonderfully pleasant industry if it were only legal, which does not square with the experiences of countries where it is legal or tolerated. You pretty much have to be running schoolgirls out of homeroom to get the Nagoya police to so much as glance in your direction, but Japanese prostitution is a very, very ugly place to be, and much of it is based on trafficking. I l…

It's true the legalization of prostitution hasn't solved the problem of human trafficking in the Netherlands. The hope once was that legal prostitutes would lower demand for illegal ones, just like legal marijuana has all obliterated the demand for the illegal stuff. That hasn't worked but the legal prostitutes are still a good deal better off then when they were outside the law and nobody is considering making it illegal again.

Re: Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution ranges essentially from crack addict street walkers up to 'chat' call girls who are frequently educated enough to maintain conversation with wealthy businessmen. It's exceptionally naive to think the Russian mob is going to start trafficking in university graduate hookers. What needs to be done is establish an agency to govern and regulate the sex trades, including the money handling. You want to be a pr…

maybe we should make your boss pay you through an agency, that will keep most of your money. It should be each women's right to conduct her work in private,, with her ouwn guidelines that she is comfortable with. You already have us with a agency in your exampe which means we could not be independents. I am sure most of my clients would not come to visit if I where in some shady agency or spa with someone counting th…

Okay, be naive and don't even read my comment. Nowhere is going to legalize the sex trades when it goes hand in hand with organized crime.

I know here in Ontario many apartment buildings can actively discriminate against sex workers, drug dealers or anyone working illegally and they can do it quite simply: rent isn't accepted in cash. If you're getting paid in cash, you're not paying taxes and if the government catches a paper trail then you'll be in jail and they'll investigate every iota of your life.

Or, like I suggested, the government performs the actions any employer does: pay your income taxes, pay your Employment Insurance, pay your Pension; pay the rest to you. If you don't want to accept the government taking the money that by law they are entitled to through you earning a living, then you will always be illegal.

Either be realistic or stay illegal and naive. Governments will not allow a business that has been hand-in-hand with organized crime to simply go legal and allow the mob their easiest opportunity to money-launder in existence.

If you don't believe your transactions aren't already being monitored, you obviously don't have a bank account. I've seen people's accounts locked for buying a laptop, putting in a check, taking out $200. My UK card got locked when I first used it in Canada. I don't get why you'd be adverse to the government checking to make sure you're not depositing large sums into foreign bank accounts when your own bank already checks every detail of your spending to ensure it doesn't break pattern.

I'm sorry if you took offence by what I said, but I really don't give a damn if you're too naive to see the real world. You honestly sound like every whining moron who doesn't want the government taking their income tax.

Here at HN we like to discuss things. You add nothing to this discussion but the tired old dogma of the victim. You provide no justification of why the government shouldn't be taking the taxes they're entitled too, you provide nothing.

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