Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#81

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #71

andrepd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bottom line: I would not want to swap positions with the 14th century peasant and I suspect the author would not want to, either. But is that the issue here? What does that sentence even mean, or add to the discussion? The article quotes the historian as finding that peasants in 14th century England put in at most 150 days of work per year. This was, according to them, an abnormal period of especially large wages. T…

That's equating unemployment with vacation. And that's overlooking how hard mundane existence was: heat required collecting firewood, cooling was opening a window, cooking was over open indoor fires, food was hard to preserve, beds were scratchy/lumpy/hard, clothing was hand-made mostly from raw wool (clean, spin thread, weave, hand sew) so wardrobes were sparse, water was often dirty & diseased (beer was more necess…

I don't think the concept of "unemployment" is meaningful when we're talking about pre-modern people living off the land.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#82

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

They paid less tax, too.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#83

Post by mantas » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #41

stult wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that's not quite true either. Pilgrimages were quite common, and although not necessarily a vacation as we would consider it, many even fairly poor people traveled quite far distances just for the spiritual pleasure of it.

That's true, but I think of that as a different phenomenon.

Why? Both are getting away from home purely for spiritual joy.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#84

Post by ctdonath » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #35

emodendroket wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I see the relevancy of the chores, though. Do they go away if you work longer hours? Medieval peasants, as far as I know, did drink a lot of beer.

Standard of living == hours available for chores. So the hardest-working lowest peasant on poor land wore rags. Because they 'couldn't afford' to make any better with the time and energy they had left over. The single most significant living improvement in rural America in the 20th Century was - rural electrification. Because the housekeeper got almost their entire Wednesday back, no longer spent out on the washing p…

Standard of living == hours available for chores

Interesting definition. Needs expansion to address the number of hours required to perform chores. Having more hours available to do laundry isn't better if laundry takes significantly more hours. Peasant may have had a whole day per week available to do laundry, but indeed expended that whole day doing it ... vs laundry taking me less than an hour per week.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#85

Post by barrkel » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #66

barrkel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would, FWIW.

Why? No HVAC, electricity, running potable hot water, limited literature, long delivery times.

I don't have HVAC now and nor have I ever felt much need for it; I don't do much online ordering; and I don't spend much time reading other than frivolities online.

On the other hand, power, especially over a large organization, and playing in a much bigger game is very interesting.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#86

Post by adventured » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

jeanmichelx wrote: post #75

adventured wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happen to agree with you broadly. However, two data points to bring to the discussion. Germany's median net wealth per adult is below that of the US ($47,000 vs $56,000 for 2017). Given the US isn't renowned for how well its middle does these days, that implies something has gone wrong in Germany. Per the OECD figures, the US is the third most productive in terms of GDP per hour worked, at around $73 for 2017. Excl…

> $47,000 vs $56,000 for 2017 Ever tried to buy a (non fast-food) meal in Germany and in the US? Your purchasing power is way higher in Europe.

I disagree, the US famously has a low cost of living compared to developed nations in Europe. That includes everything from energy prices to housing prices to food prices. When adjusted for the higher US wages, that imbalance is even more dramatic.

Take energy costs as one example. US natural gas prices are half that of Western Europe. Electricity costs are half or less that of Western Europe. In Germany, electricity is about $0.35 kilowatt hour. In the US, it's $0.12.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#87

Post by barrkel » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #69

ctdonath wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? No HVAC, electricity, running potable hot water, limited literature, long delivery times.

To say nothing of the fact that let's see the first time he gets an infection or disease or needs surgery given no vaccinations, antibiotics, or anesthetics.

When was the last time you got an infection or disease that would have struck you down without modern medicine?

I never have. In fact if hospitals didn't exist and I never saw a doctor my entire life, I don't think anything would have changed.

I don't expect to live much longer than 60 as it is. Most 14th century monarchs, in the brief glance I did on Wikipedia before my answer, lived to 55 or 60 or so before they died of natural causes.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#88

Post by macspoofing » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #17

macspoofing wrote: post #14

This sounds like it could be explained by the same structural problems that communist nations went through ... in that if you don't own the land, and the proceeds of what you make don't really belong to you and there is no incentive to make more than what your neighbour makes ... why not put in the least amount of work you can.

I feel like the same lack of "incentive" applies to many people with menial jobs in a capitalist economy.

Not quite. There is still a direct correlation between work and benefit, as in if you work more, you make more, but you keep more. In Communist economies, that isn't true. If you work more, you make more, but you don't get to keep more.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#89

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #51

andrepd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bottom line: I would not want to swap positions with the 14th century peasant and I suspect the author would not want to, either. But is that the issue here? What does that sentence even mean, or add to the discussion? The article quotes the historian as finding that peasants in 14th century England put in at most 150 days of work per year. This was, according to them, an abnormal period of especially large wages. T…

>>Bottom line: I would not want to swap positions with the 14th century peasant and I suspect the author would not want to, either. > But is that the issue here? What does that sentence even mean, or add to the discussion? I think the author of the article (not the author of the quoted research one level down) argues that an average medieval peasant had it better than an average modern worker; thus we should try to n…

I don't think a vague sense that "they had it better" is necessarily what's at issue. The popular image of the peasant is that they must have spent most of their lives toiling away. What the historical record shows is rather different. I don't think any of us are arguing for regressing society to feudalism (well, besides [your least favorite political figure here] at least, ha ha), but looking at the disparity does give us something to interrogate -- why did we adopt the kind of hours we work now? Do they still make sense? (I think the first question is probably easier to answer than the second)

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#90

Post by vertex-four » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

vadimberman wrote: post #78

vertex-four wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not capitalism vs state socialism ("communism"). That you seem to think it is, shows exactly how well propaganda has worked on you, from both of those sources.

It's wonderful that there is someone with mind as unclouded by propaganda to enlighten me and improve my limited world view. Did you find any figures or arguments in the original paper that I overlooked? Like, Chinese peasants, German peasants, etc.

No, I generally agree that we've shifted things around so that most workers now are generally a bit better off than before in many ways. I think they could be better off still under alternative systems. I was however responding, primarily, to your apparent argument that anyone criticising capitalism can only be a Soviet-era state-supporting "communist".