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Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

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Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#21

Post by pm90 »

greglindahl wrote: post #10
hsivonen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a cloud provider that allows a EU-based natural-person customer buy a little Power 9 time for testing? Last I looked, Power cloud offerings required the customer to be a big company that buys a lot of compute.

I think IBM Softlayer has been renting out small numbers of Power-based machines for a while now, enough to test with.

Correct! They rent out POWER8 systems: https://www.ibm.com/cloud/bare-metal-servers/power. POWER9 systems don't seem to be available (yet).

As for the future, I can't say much publicly (le sigh) but let me just say that personally I think future of power is bright, especially with cloud providers.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#22

Post by bitwize »

bluedino wrote: post #11

I can see China running with ARM and POWER, ditching Intel entirely. Google, on the other hand would need a reason to switch. Somewhere there's a spreadsheet with a number for energy cost savings that would make it worth it for Google to switch architectures. I've heard it's as low as 10%.

I can see China running with bootleg x86 chips.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#23

Post by saas_co_de »

Twirrim wrote: post #13

One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. Lots of people in tech talk about being interested in trying it, it has a number of interesting characteristics, but the barrier for entry is fairly high. It's possible to get a POWER8 based server on Softlayer, IBM's cloud product, but not as a VM. You can get one as a bare metal server, but you can't get one for an ho…

> One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it.

I don't think IBM cares about people using it, especially people who can't afford $1000 dollars. They are only interested in high margin corp/gov pork barrel deals and need something that they can plausibly claim is superior in order to charge 10X for it.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#24

Post by kev009 »

Twirrim wrote: post #13

One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. Lots of people in tech talk about being interested in trying it, it has a number of interesting characteristics, but the barrier for entry is fairly high. It's possible to get a POWER8 based server on Softlayer, IBM's cloud product, but not as a VM. You can get one as a bare metal server, but you can't get one for an ho…

Not any worse than the past decade of arm server "promise"

Bootstrapping an alt arch is hard, it really needs a loss leader OR a significant performance delta (which they now have with accelerator workloads). Google deploying it in prod is a major milestone and will help with volume and confidence.

Supermicro has a P8 and P9 line. It is price competitive with x86. If you are interested, send their sales a note.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#25

Post by kev009 »

api wrote: post #2

That would be nice, but the problem with these systems historically is that they're ridiculously expensive compared to x64 servers for the end user. As a result end users and SMBs never get their hands on them and nobody develops anything for them or supports them.

Server cost is dominated by storage at the moment. DRAM is also a large static cost with little negotiation room. The cost of a P9 and motherboard is a small subset of a system build and below the price of Skylake for me.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#26

Post by marshray »

Nomentatus wrote: post #19
api wrote: post #2

That would be nice, but the problem with these systems historically is that they're ridiculously expensive compared to x64 servers for the end user. As a result end users and SMBs never get their hands on them and nobody develops anything for them or supports them.

The article addresses this at a couple of points, do you know factors which would counter its argument, or are you just pointing to the same history the article pointed to? e.g.: "Power 9 should do better than its predecessors given its costs, bandwidth, and ease of porting. Power 9 is IBM’s first to use standard DIMMs, opening a door to other standard components that are, overall, cutting system costs by 20% to 50%…

IBM will never understand this but few, if any, architectures have made it into the datacenter that were not first affordable for experimenters and enthusiasts.

The burden of proof is on those claiming the pricing does not present a barrier to entry to the ecosystem.

I am curious about developing for Power. Please link me to an entry-level system I can buy on the web.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#27

Post by marshray »

saas_co_de wrote: post #23
Twirrim wrote: post #13

One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. Lots of people in tech talk about being interested in trying it, it has a number of interesting characteristics, but the barrier for entry is fairly high. It's possible to get a POWER8 based server on Softlayer, IBM's cloud product, but not as a VM. You can get one as a bare metal server, but you can't get one for an ho…

> One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. I don't think IBM cares about people using it, especially people who can't afford $1000 dollars. They are only interested in high margin corp/gov pork barrel deals and need something that they can plausibly claim is superior in order to charge 10X for it.

Sales-commission driven product development.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#28

Post by Spooky23 »

Twirrim wrote: post #13

One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. Lots of people in tech talk about being interested in trying it, it has a number of interesting characteristics, but the barrier for entry is fairly high. It's possible to get a POWER8 based server on Softlayer, IBM's cloud product, but not as a VM. You can get one as a bare metal server, but you can't get one for an ho…

IBM used power as a sort of step-down from Mainframe when big enterprises moved from cobol to java. That came with all of the bullshit like leasing CPU/hours and getting more software revenue using their "value unit" model.

The other thing with power is that it has been a scale up vs. scale out product. That makes sense when you want to optimize your Oracle/SAP licensing or something similar. It doesn't make sense for modern use cases where you're using open-source or other solutions where growing infrastructure into your use case makes more economic sense.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#29

Post by aseipp »

saas_co_de wrote: post #23
Twirrim wrote: post #13

One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. Lots of people in tech talk about being interested in trying it, it has a number of interesting characteristics, but the barrier for entry is fairly high. It's possible to get a POWER8 based server on Softlayer, IBM's cloud product, but not as a VM. You can get one as a bare metal server, but you can't get one for an ho…

> One thing I think IBM has failed to grasp about POWER architecture is how to get people to use it. I don't think IBM cares about people using it, especially people who can't afford $1000 dollars. They are only interested in high margin corp/gov pork barrel deals and need something that they can plausibly claim is superior in order to charge 10X for it.

They definitely aren't charging 10X for it, it's very much in line and competitive at the Xeon level in terms of pricing, and they shine for certain workloads, especially with the new interconnects (CAPI, NVLink). POWER8 was harder to find, but the performance characteristics were good (in my experiments). And now the software is better (more solid ports) and cost is down. I'm eagerly awaiting the chips to hit this year and trying to find access to some.

Plus IBM licenses the design these days (through OpenPOWER), so several of these players are building their own chips, boards, etc. Someone could inevitably enter the low-end market but lower-end devices have thinner margins and a lot more competitors.

Even right now you can get real chips to go on a board on pre-order, just under $400 (TALOS II preorders) -- the mobo is the pricier part, but part of that is likely due to the BOM choices on that piece from Raptor Engineering. A smaller form factor motherboard (maybe with 1 socket) could land in the sub $2000 range for a whole mobo+cpu -- which is certainly competitive with similar HEDT/workstation prices[1]...

[1] I just dropped $1,500 on a 1950X threadripper and associated mobo earlier this year, so this price range is certainly alive and kicking, IMHO.

Re: Power 9 May Dent X86 Servers: Alibaba, Google, Tencent Test IBM Systems

#30

Post by mariuolo »

bluedino wrote: post #11

I can see China running with ARM and POWER, ditching Intel entirely. Google, on the other hand would need a reason to switch. Somewhere there's a spreadsheet with a number for energy cost savings that would make it worth it for Google to switch architectures. I've heard it's as low as 10%.

> I can see China running with ARM and POWER, ditching Intel entirely.

I thought they had a thing for MIPS64, at least in their supercomputers.

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