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A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

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Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#41

Post by tskaiser »

rhapsodic wrote: post #40
tskaiser wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interest idea and a great starter for philosophical thinking, but no-one is treating it like literal gospel.

>It is an interest idea and a great starter for philosophical thinking, but no-one is treating it like literal gospel. Of course not. "Gospel" is a religious concept. They're claiming that it's a plausible, scientifically-supportable theory. I don't think it's an interesting idea at all, nor do I think it's a good starter for philosophical thinking. I think it's Creationist nonsense.

Okay.

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#42

Post by UrukParthian »

rhapsodic wrote: post #34
vanattab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been able to understand why so many other scientists and "rationalist" look back on humans early "superstitious" ideas with contempt. To my mind these superstitious ideas are the beginning of the rationalist mindset. These ideas are people's attempts to explain and understand how the world works. I am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred yea…

> am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred years. Yes, like the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, espoused by Elon Musk and other respected, ostensibly science-minded people. It's basically Creationism in modern form.

I wouldn't think of it as a theory. More like an off-the-cuff hypothesis, based on seeing and creating simulations of systems, that we ourselves are creations of a simulation. A single universe could be host to innumerable amounts of capsuled simulations.

The point is "could" because a complete simulation of "the world" would require another world much the same way that complete map of the world would constitute another world if trying to capture a full level of detail.

It's only silly in the sense that such an explanation is just one out of infinite possible, and coherent, propositions about the mechanics of "our world". In hindsight, the timescales of Hindu and Buddhist mythology don't seem absurd.

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#43

Post by dboreham »

rhapsodic wrote: post #34
vanattab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been able to understand why so many other scientists and "rationalist" look back on humans early "superstitious" ideas with contempt. To my mind these superstitious ideas are the beginning of the rationalist mindset. These ideas are people's attempts to explain and understand how the world works. I am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred yea…

> am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred years. Yes, like the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, espoused by Elon Musk and other respected, ostensibly science-minded people. It's basically Creationism in modern form.

It isn't like creationism because it is based on some otherwise currently unexplained observations such as quantum mechanical behavior and magic physical constants. The idea is that these are exactly the sort of observations you'd see if you were in a simulated universe.

Now if we were to observe new species being created in N days, for small integer N, then I suppose your assertion about creationism would also hold.

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#44

Post by UrukParthian »

pstuart wrote: post #38
vanattab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been able to understand why so many other scientists and "rationalist" look back on humans early "superstitious" ideas with contempt. To my mind these superstitious ideas are the beginning of the rationalist mindset. These ideas are people's attempts to explain and understand how the world works. I am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred yea…

I would suggest that any contempt of early superstitious ideas has to do with the fact that many live on today.

People work with the best hardware and software they can. And for a lot of people, both components are shit beyond coexisting with other members of a "tribe". A lot of people absolutely suck at abstract thought, although "suck" is a relative term.

If AI flourishes, it'll consider even the smartest human as a hillbilly swamp creature, a mockery of the possibilities of intelligence.

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#45

Post by torstenvl »

rhapsodic wrote: post #40
tskaiser wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interest idea and a great starter for philosophical thinking, but no-one is treating it like literal gospel.

>It is an interest idea and a great starter for philosophical thinking, but no-one is treating it like literal gospel. Of course not. "Gospel" is a religious concept. They're claiming that it's a plausible, scientifically-supportable theory. I don't think it's an interesting idea at all, nor do I think it's a good starter for philosophical thinking. I think it's Creationist nonsense.

A "scientifically-supportable theory"* is one that describes a phenomenon that can be observed sufficiently to form a hypothesis and then test that hypothesis by experiment.

In what way would you propose to test the simulation hypothesis by experiment?

(* I'm assuming you're using the word "theory" loosely here.)

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#46

Post by vog »

rhapsodic wrote: post #34
vanattab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never been able to understand why so many other scientists and "rationalist" look back on humans early "superstitious" ideas with contempt. To my mind these superstitious ideas are the beginning of the rationalist mindset. These ideas are people's attempts to explain and understand how the world works. I am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred yea…

> am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred years. Yes, like the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, espoused by Elon Musk and other respected, ostensibly science-minded people. It's basically Creationism in modern form.

> the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, ... It's basically Creationism in modern form.

It's not even modern. It is basically Plato's Cave, which is classic Greek philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

The religious touch of that idea did not become popular until the movie "The Matrix", which originally had allusions to many different religions, but specialized to Christianity / Creationism with the second and especially the third movie "The Matrix Revolutions".

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#47

Post by rhapsodic »

dboreham wrote: post #43
rhapsodic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am certain that some of the ideas that many of us hold now will be thought quite silly in a few hundred years. Yes, like the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, espoused by Elon Musk and other respected, ostensibly science-minded people. It's basically Creationism in modern form.

It isn't like creationism because it is based on some otherwise currently unexplained observations such as quantum mechanical behavior and magic physical constants. The idea is that these are exactly the sort of observations you'd see if you were in a simulated universe. Now if we were to observe new species being created in N days, for small integer N, then I suppose your assertion about creationism would also hold.

>It isn't like creationism because it is based on some otherwise currently unexplained observations such as quantum mechanical behavior and magic physical constants. The idea is that these are exactly the sort of observations you'd see if you were in a simulated universe.

Really? Why would you not simply "see" whatever the Creator(s) want you to "see"? After all, it's a simulation.

And it seems to me likely that Creationism originally grew out of a then-unexplained observation: "Hey, we're alive and we exist! How the heck did that happen???"

>Now if we were to observe new species being created in N days, for small integer N, then I suppose your assertion about creationism would also hold.

I'm not sure what you mean. My assertion about classic Creationism is that it's disproven bunk.

Are you saying that if "if we were to observe new species being created in N days, for small integer N" then my assertion that simulation-Creationism is also bunk would hold?

Re: A Visiting Star Jostled Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago

#49

Post by shock-value »

ninkendo wrote: post #35

I'll take this opportunity to recommend Universe Sandbox[1], which is pretty cheap on steam and worth every penny. Turning on projected orbital lines in an N-body simulation of our solar system and seeing what happens when you toss a star in there is really enlightening... the rings all shift in tandem in a visceral way that really helps me "feel" what happens. There's a simulation that comes out of the box that simu…

Space engine http://spaceengine.org/ is also worth mentioning
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