Guide to Slack import and export tools • Hacker News Board

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#451

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

wcunning wrote: post #325

Cacti wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if the issue is two employees are using Slack to discuss using a competitors proprietary information on a contract proposal? Or two employees are discussing how to arrange the books so that they don't receive margin calls while trying to hide large trading losses? You can't depend on everyone being on the up and up.

Replace "are using Slack" with "discussing at the bar across the street from the office" and what changes about the situation? If the company has an obligation to look into something, they have to look into it. They don't necessarily (and in my opinion shouldn't ever) have the need to, say, record audio of everything you ever do. What does the gray-er area of conversation in the break room at the office look like? Wh…

This idea that, because you can't perfectly stop something, you shouldn't try to do it at all is madness. Yes, they could get around it. But in this situation, they're not.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#452

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

bbarn wrote: post #435

jedberg wrote: post #370

You can tell who here has worked for a large American company and who hasn't. If you've ever worked for a large American company, you know that nothing you do on company equipment or with a service the company pays for is ever private, and you should never assume it is. I'll be honest, I always thought Slack DMs were viewable by the admin. As a Slack admin myself, I always assumed I had that ability. Never used so, I…

Well, on the other hand, some of us checked, read the privacy policy, and found it acceptable. Compliance reports came out, with the caveat that that was from point in time forward, and that was also acceptable. This is rewriting the privacy policy we agreed to retroactively, and it's not OK in my mind. I don't say anything stupid on company slack, but in principle this is a bad move.

Yes, this is what happened with me too. I assumed there was some way for the admin to view DMs, but on inspection, discovered there wasn't without first activating Compliance Exports. While it would be great to say that I was a hardened corporate peon that knew better than to fall for this, it wouldn't be completely true; I actually expected Slack to live up to that and not retroactively disclose DMs.

It's not that I necessarily wrote anything that would be a problem if it was disclosed (as others have pointed out, there were other workarounds to get DMs if the company really wanted them) -- it's just broken trust.

Access to DMs would've been par for the course if it had been the way Slack worked all along, but it's really disappointing to see them change it retroactively, insofar as that's what's actually happening.

The consensus here is of course correct: never trust anything done on company equipment, whether it's owned or rented (as in the case of a Slack channel) to be private, even if the owner of the rented property has given certain assurances. Money makes the world go 'round.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#453

Post by jedberg » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

bbarn wrote: post #438

Cacti wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very odd. We've had corporate monitoring of practically all employee electronic activities for decades. It's enshrined in legislation and tested in case law. The capabilities are built into practically every major business software. There are whole industries built up around it. Yet suddenly everyone is losing their mind over some corporate IMs just because it's Slack? I feel like I'm on Reddit, not a site oste…

The difference is their privacy policy has been changed retroactively against the good faith their users had. That's the problem. Of course if it's corporate it's usually monitored, but when Slack championed the user and only catered to the company when forced (via compliance reports which told you they were enabled) and now suddenly switches to a model where past contracts are broken, people have a right to be upset…

Yeah, it kinda sucks that they changed the privacy policy, but if you had actually read it, you'd have seen the part that says that they can change it any time for any reason.

And also, all they've done is give the corporation the technical ability to do something they've always been able to do -- read your private chats. It's just that before they had to do more work to do it, but they've always had the right to do it, regardless of what Slack's privacy policy said.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#454

Post by urda » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

peterkelly wrote: post #194

tvanantwerp wrote: post #13

As head of IT for a company using Slack: FINALLY. Don't get me wrong--it's not like I want to read your messages and very likely won't. But there are times when I have no choice. A few years back, a group of interns started privately harassing other interns via Slack. Only way to see it was to boot an offending intern from his work station and go into his Slack to see what was happening. We had to make all intern acc…

If two people want to have a private conversation, they'll just find another means by which to do it. In the long run, abusing your privileged access to conversations intended to be private (however justified you may consider it to be) will just breed mistrust among employees. I would quit a job that treated me as a child which must be supervised in such a manner.

> would quit a job that treated me as a child which must be supervised in such a manner.

Then you should be prepared to be permanently out of work.

You are NOT entitled to private communications on company-sanctioned channels. Full Stop. End of story. This isn't an issue of "trust" or having faith in your employees, but this is how business is done.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#455

Post by jedberg » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

bbarn wrote: post #435

jedberg wrote: post #370

You can tell who here has worked for a large American company and who hasn't. If you've ever worked for a large American company, you know that nothing you do on company equipment or with a service the company pays for is ever private, and you should never assume it is. I'll be honest, I always thought Slack DMs were viewable by the admin. As a Slack admin myself, I always assumed I had that ability. Never used so, I…

Well, on the other hand, some of us checked, read the privacy policy, and found it acceptable. Compliance reports came out, with the caveat that that was from point in time forward, and that was also acceptable. This is rewriting the privacy policy we agreed to retroactively, and it's not OK in my mind. I don't say anything stupid on company slack, but in principle this is a bad move.

Yeah, it kinda sucks that they changed the privacy policy, but if you had actually read it, you'd have seen the part that says that they can change it any time for any reason.

And also, all they've done is give the corporation the technical ability to do something they've always been able to do -- read your private chats. It's just that before they had to do more work to do it, but they've always had the right to do it, regardless of what Slack's privacy policy said.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#456

Post by tedivm » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #387

tedivm wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recording audio and bugging offices is a completely different matter than reading through already preserved text that exists on company infrastructure (email or slack conversations). The records already exist in the case we're talking about. Presumably the victim would share the harassing messages, but by being able to review the records directly the supervisors can gain more information such as whether the harasser…

I'd argue that it isn't. I'm not a legal expert, but it seems that it could be argued that direct messages are implied private conversations, and that laws around recording audio implies that private spoken conversations can occur in offices. The fact that direct messages leave a history is merely a side effect that does not suggest that they are any less private than a spoken conversation behind closed doors. Howeve…

Well, as you said, you aren't an expert on this and apparently haven't ever been briefed by your company's legal team, and presumably have never been in charge of compliance. So your arguments about how the law works are in this situation pretty useless.

Jumping away from that angle though, there's still a lot of issues with what you are presenting. For one thing you keep referring to "authorities" without defining who those authorities are. If you're referring to the company IT, HR, and Compliance officers then it seems like you agree with us that the information should be available to those people. However, since that would be a bit odd with the rest of the context you're speaking about I'm going to assume you mean authorities in some sort of government or law enforcement sense.

The thing is that authorities rarely get involved in most of the cases where this information is needed. Sexual Harassment is not a criminal offense, it's a civil one- people don't go to jail for it, they lose money from it. Outside of taking reports these types of things are rarely investigated by authorities in that sense, and there are remarkably different burdens of proof for each of those. Most companies (and individuals I would imagine) also don't want to make a legal issue out of work ones if they can help it, which means it is often in everyone's best interest to handle certain types of problems in house.

Now, as for the philosophy aspect of things, as long as companies are responsible for managing their own trade secrets, sexual harassment complaints, and security in general then all company property (which includes conversations on company servers and services) are open to that company. This is why I do not sign up for company phone plans (except when I want a separate company phone and phone number), and why my work computer does not have my personal accounts on it.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#457

Post by ashwinaj » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

tvanantwerp wrote: post #13

As head of IT for a company using Slack: FINALLY. Don't get me wrong--it's not like I want to read your messages and very likely won't. But there are times when I have no choice. A few years back, a group of interns started privately harassing other interns via Slack. Only way to see it was to boot an offending intern from his work station and go into his Slack to see what was happening. We had to make all intern acc…

I reluctantly agree with you. Employees are smart, especially the ones that harass others and they need to be exposed.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#458

Post by Cacti » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

afastow wrote: post #437

Cacti wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think some companies need the ability to investigate things their employees are doing for the specific purpose of bringing it to the attention of government agencies PRIOR to warrants being issued and PRIOR to pissing off the entire federal government?

No? I'm being serious when I say this idea is absurd to me. If you have a serious level of concern about your employees doing something illegal then why are they your employee in the first place? If you are going to use "We need to be checking for illegal activity" as a justification, why stop at DMs? Why not ask your employees to always be carrying around a recording device that is constantly sending their verbal co…

We are not talking about some small made with love startup here that no one cares about. We are talking about military contractors, financial companies, law firms, consulting firms, public stock corporations, etc etc. places with hundred or thousands of employees and millions if not billions in revenue. You are woefully niave if you think you can run a major company in any of these areas without eventually having employees who are going to do illegal things. People do a lot of crazy things, some for personal reasons, some to get promoted, some because they think they were sanctioned by their boss, some perhaps thought it was best for the company, and so on.

I understand what you’re saying here, and sure, maybe in some small private companies or organizations this is a tragic loss of privacy, but everywhere else it is simply the cost of doing business.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#459

Post by savanaly » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #416

IMHO I don't think this is a fair title change. What is important here is the fact that access to DMs have changed. Not that the general import/export tools have changed. If Google changed their TOS to suddenly make everyone's search history public, would the title read "Google changes TOS"?

I agree, and this is the first time I can ever recall disagreeing with one of HN's admin title corrections that I noticed.

Re: Guide to Slack import and export tools

#460

Post by savanaly » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #341

Part of the reason why Slack has been so successful vs. other corporate messaging solutions is that it encourages employees to bring their “whole self” to work. It’s perhaps the most important thing at work to feel like you can communicate easily and without fear of reprisal from managers and in my opinion had a lot to do with my extensive use of Slack. It felt like, for the first time, the communications platform wa…

Yep. I work totally remotely and Slack felt fundamentally different to email: my extensive DM's with coworkers felt very analogous to physical contact.

Sometimes, if you're working in an office, you just want to lean back in your chair and whisper to your coworker "what a fuckin awful meeting, what was [boss] thinkin?". And as a full-time remote worker, Slack was the only place for that. I feel this will make 100% remote a lot tougher and more isolating because the life-line that was private contact has been severed.