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Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

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Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#171

Post by robotresearcher »

jrs235 wrote: post #160
stupidcar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit. That is way, WAY crazier than a non-compete. That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. Even if you go and work for a non-competing company in a completely different field, and invent something totally unrelated t…

>That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. But it's not. Inventions != copyright or code produced. If I author a book after employment they don't own the rights to my book. If I write code after employment they don't necess…

The agreement explicitly says "or item of intellectual property". It's absurd.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#172

Post by joezydeco »

EpicEng wrote: post #58
sigzero wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not enforceable. However, in that post year if you "invent" something and they can tie it back to their business "somehow", they will come after you (maybe).

And that's really the big problem in my eyes (ignoring how ridiculous it is in and of itself.) I'd be opening myself up to a potential lawsuit. Even if it's deemed unenforceable I still have the hassle and legal costs to deal with.

That was exactly my problem.

I'm doing work in IoT, and I fully expected to retain that knowledge for the jobs afterward (for the record it was a job offer, not a current employer).

So this company could have really made my life a hassle if I quit them and went to work in a different field but was still doing IoT work. They could shut things down just to make life hard.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#173

Post by joezydeco »

vonmoltke wrote: post #81
tboyd47 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-compete agreements like that aren't enforceable in every state. Check the laws of your state.

That isn't a non-compete clause. It's an IP assignment clause. For our profession that is effectively the same thing, but the legal distinction is important.

Totally agree. When your job is to generate IP, this stuff is kind of important.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#174

Post by crdoconnor »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #80
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

Strike it out and keep going. If it can't be striked out (such as online) just don't sign it. Probably start sending out your resume just in case they force the point, but I would not sign such an clause at all.

I managed to get a clause like this stricken once and I still regret taking the job. It turns out unreasonable contracts means unreasonable people and you want to stay away from unreasonable people.

Better to just tell them to take a hike and (ideally) name and shame the company publicly.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#175

Post by EpicEng »

joezydeco wrote: post #172
EpicEng wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's really the big problem in my eyes (ignoring how ridiculous it is in and of itself.) I'd be opening myself up to a potential lawsuit. Even if it's deemed unenforceable I still have the hassle and legal costs to deal with.

That was exactly my problem. I'm doing work in IoT, and I fully expected to retain that knowledge for the jobs afterward (for the record it was a job offer, not a current employer). So this company could have really made my life a hassle if I quit them and went to work in a different field but was still doing IoT work. They could shut things down just to make life hard.

Yup. I work in medical devices, and a pretty niche area at that. When I left my previous company I joined a company doing essentially the same stuff, but at a much earlier stage. How could I possibly have done my job and also conformed to an agreement such as this? There's no way; I would have had to change industries.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#176

Post by smnrchrds »

joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

This does not even pass the Sex Tape Litmus Test [1]. No sane person should sign this.

[1] http://www.laverick.org/sex-tape-litmus-test/

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#177

Post by ideonexus »

This is the flip-side benefit to living in Right-to-Work states. On the one hand, it's nearly impossible to unionize, but working as a contractor in Virginia, I had an agency try exercise the non-compete against me when I tried to take a job directly with their client. That client happened to be the Society for Human Resource Management. Their management laughed at the attempt and had a lawyer send the agency a letter explaining that Virginia was a Right-to-Work state and the non-compete was unenforceable.

In North Carolina, another Right-to-Work state, my government contractor tried to exercise the non-compete I had with them to prevent other companies from competing for the contract. My co-worker had us all sign up with his lawyer, who defended us breaking the non-compete as unenforceable in NC. The contractor didn't bother taking the case to court and was only using the non-compete to bully employees who didn't know better.

I've been hearing about lobbyists working to make non-competes enforceable in Right-to-Work states, and I'm not surprised. The point of the laws was to defend corporations against unions. I imagine the fact that it protects individuals against companies is undesirable to the powers that be.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#178

Post by arca_vorago »

Like I've said before, learn how contracts work people! First, never sign willy nilly. second, you always have a right to mark out and modify parts and present them back for acceptance. Third, each thing is a separate contract, don't assume because you accepted the employment agreement that also means you have to sign (an unmodified) anything else like an nda or non-compete.

I just got out from under a biotech non-compete of two years recently, but after talking with friends in the legal friend they just laughed and said they love getting non-compete tossed because they are mostly unenforceable.

As a senior sysadmin I always saw it as a sort of test. I'm going to be entering the company into contracts (with the isp for example) so I better be able to actually read them and know how to modify and negotiate them. It's one of the things I tell my teams too... stop signing anything anyone puts in front of you, and that includes HR!

These are the sort of issues on the tech side that a MBA in a role like CTO/CIO should be catching and correcting. As for employment agreements, there is a lot of stuff that HR does that ought to be consulted with counsel but isn't, and is therefor is questionably legal or enforceable.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#179

Post by amelius »

biztos wrote: post #109
stupidcar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit. That is way, WAY crazier than a non-compete. That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. Even if you go and work for a non-competing company in a completely different field, and invent something totally unrelated t…

In Germany that clause would mean they'd have to pay you your full salary for as long as they prevented you from working for someone else. So it'd be a one-year vacation whenever your employment ended, but probably not much use for your career.

That sounds very reasonable. And to take it a step further, if they want possession of ideas you have in your spare time, then they should pay for your spare time too! :)

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#180

Post by jrs235 »

function_seven wrote: post #166
jrs235 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. But it's not. Inventions != copyright or code produced. If I author a book after employment they don't own the rights to my book. If I write code after employment they don't necess…

It's not just inventions, though. The phrase is: invention, discovery or item of intellectual property The "item of intellectual property" would cover copyrighted material, right? Seems way unenforceable to me, but IANAL.

>The "item of intellectual property" would cover copyrighted material, right?

Very much possible, but as someone else alluded to, this clause is incomplete without the rest of the agreement. Somewhere in the agreement "intellectual property" may be defined [better] and it may include copyright, and it might include terms that narrow down what copyright falls within their definition of "intellectual property" (i.e. copyright-able works which pertain to the business of the company). They don't want to own everything... what if I write software for a personal pet project and it causes damages... they would open up themselves to potential liability (unless they cover that, again, somewhere else in the agreement). The entire agreement text is needed for clarity and to make conclusions.

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