She tried 960 times • Hacker News Board

Re: She tried 960 times

#31

Post by diziet » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 12:17 AM UTC

klipt wrote: post #28

diziet wrote: post #21

To me, this is an extremely sad story about the way we treat knowledge and learning. How absurd is it to cheer for someone that memorizes questions and answers without having contextual knowledge about the actual meaning behind those questions? It's not dedication, it's thick-headed stubbornness. The lady has been at it for about five years now. If she did it the right way, she could have learned to learn , then lear…

surely had something to do with the way school and knowledge is treated there. You mean like the fact she only started school at 15 and never finished it? We take things like literacy for granted, but they're actually quite difficult to acquire if you don't start young. Which is not to say that I think her method was a good idea, just that there may not really have been other options.

I think I was not fully clear on who I meant treats school and knowledge. I was talking about the public, about the fact that we, and the media, exclaim and proclaim her diligence and hard working nature. That's the ironic and sad part.

Working smart is better than working hard (except, of course, when you need to work hard and smart). Imagine if instead of the current computerized mail sorting system we had thousands of post workers sitting there and sorting mail, diligently. Is that something to be applauded?

Re: She tried 960 times

#32

Post by noonespecial » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 12:26 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #26

Sadly, all she got was a drivers license. It's not like she hit success with her startup after 960 tries and became a happy member of the fym club.

She was a poor rural villager. She got the right to drive and a free $16,000 car. Its like getting magic powers and a king's ransom. I'd wager her life changed more for the better as a result of these events than most of ours would if we did get that big fym exit.

In her world, she joined indeed.

Re: She tried 960 times

#33

Post by Mz » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:11 AM UTC

siculars wrote: post #17

This is quite possibly the most inspiring story of human tenacity and sheer grit I've heard in quite a while. It really made me smile. Clearly her method was not optimal but it... eventually worked for her. Just goes to show that perseverance pays off even when starting from absolute zero. Good for Cha Sa-soon!

And she got a free car out of it:

In early August, Hyundai presented Ms. Cha with a $16,800 car.

Ms. Cha, whose name, coincidentally enough, is Korean for “vehicle,” now also appears on a prime-time television commercial for Hyundai.

Go Grandma!

Re: She tried 960 times

#34

Post by sesqu » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:24 AM UTC

lunchbox wrote: post #12

xenophanes wrote: post #6

I wonder what are the odds of passing the written test with random answers. I assume it's multiple choice.

Here's what we know from the article: (1) 40 question test, (2) Multiple choice, (3) She passed it with "60 out of 100" My assumptions: (1) It's graded on a simple "percentage right" basis, so 24/40 questions necessary right to pass, (2) 4 options for each question Her score on an individual test is a random variable X following a binomial distribution with 40 trials and chance of 0.25 for each trial. Her chance of p…

just remembering the answers to several of the same questions that are probably being recycled from test to test.

I assumed this is how she did it, but assuming all questions are recycled, 4 options in 40 questions, perfect memory, no knowledge, and a naïve strategy, she should have passed in just 29 tries (1.75 retries per question, 10 initially right, 24 needed). Mastermind isn't that hard a game. So clearly, some assumptions are wrong.

Re: She tried 960 times

#35

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:25 AM UTC

jlees wrote: post #22

To me, this is less about the fact a single woman had to memorise a written driving test by failing it 949 times, and more about the mismatch between the test itself and the populace. Surely she is fairly indicative of a rural inhabitant? Why is the test so inaccessible, and how many others are there like her?

>Why is the test so inaccessible, and how many others are there like her?

The test should ensure that a driver can read read and understand street signs both symbolic and textual ones and respond correctly ... oh yeah, and drive the relevant vehicle. They should also be able to service the car sufficiently to keep it safe - pump tyres, check fluids, know mostly when it needs attention from a mechanic.

Not everyone can do all these things hence the test appears "inaccessible".

Re: She tried 960 times

#36

Post by fuzzythinker » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:30 AM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #32

Tichy wrote: post #26

Sadly, all she got was a drivers license. It's not like she hit success with her startup after 960 tries and became a happy member of the fym club.

She was a poor rural villager. She got the right to drive and a free $16,000 car . Its like getting magic powers and a king's ransom. I'd wager her life changed more for the better as a result of these events than most of ours would if we did get that big fym exit. In her world, she joined indeed.

Well, after deducting 960 * $5 fee ~= $5k, plus 960 * unknown bus fee (let's assume it's rounds to $1k), it's more like a $10k car. Also, this car is given to her, so her value for the car may not be $16k (imagine she's given $16k towards the purchase of any car, she'll probably ended up with a different car). Finally, not sure of tax laws in Korean, so she may have to pay taxes on it before the $6k fee deductions. She still comes out ahead, but probably close to half of $16k value.

But her fame from the story is priceless.

Re: She tried 960 times

#37

Post by kijinbear » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:32 AM UTC

jlees wrote: post #22

To me, this is less about the fact a single woman had to memorise a written driving test by failing it 949 times, and more about the mismatch between the test itself and the populace. Surely she is fairly indicative of a rural inhabitant? Why is the test so inaccessible, and how many others are there like her?

It would be pretty darned difficult to make a standardized test "match" folks who are illiterate or just barely literate, which this Granny seems to have been. BTW, literacy rate in South Korea is around 98% (most of the remainder being old women like Ms. Cha who couldn't get education during colonial times) so I don't think the test would have been too inaccessible to the populace in general.

Re: She tried 960 times

#38

Post by ars » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 1:58 AM UTC

sesqu wrote: post #34

lunchbox wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what we know from the article: (1) 40 question test, (2) Multiple choice, (3) She passed it with "60 out of 100" My assumptions: (1) It's graded on a simple "percentage right" basis, so 24/40 questions necessary right to pass, (2) 4 options for each question Her score on an individual test is a random variable X following a binomial distribution with 40 trials and chance of 0.25 for each trial. Her chance of p…

just remembering the answers to several of the same questions that are probably being recycled from test to test. I assumed this is how she did it, but assuming all questions are recycled, 4 options in 40 questions, perfect memory, no knowledge, and a naïve strategy, she should have passed in just 29 tries (1.75 retries per question, 10 initially right, 24 needed). Mastermind isn't that hard a game. So clearly, some…

Change your assumptions to assume a larger set of questions, not 40.

Re: She tried 960 times

#39

Post by mattm » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 2:39 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #26

Sadly, all she got was a drivers license. It's not like she hit success with her startup after 960 tries and became a happy member of the fym club.

Success is defined by the person.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is an incredibly egotistical and snobbish statement to make.

Re: She tried 960 times

#40

Post by 10ren » Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 2:46 AM UTC

> "Sajeonogi," or "Knocked down four times, rising up five."

Is Korean really that much more efficient than English, or is that word a label?

The instructors started to teach her after 949 tries - 949 tries, of watching this poor woman fail! - then she did learn, and got it on the 11th try after that. Teaching her was frustrating to them, I think mainly because they weren't really teaching her about driving, but a subset of civil administration and technology concepts, such as "regulations" and "emergency light".

The tragedy is that she could not afford "Middle school", despite dreaming of it so painfully that taking the driving test daily became a joyous wish fulfillment of attending school... an attitude of which the stereotypical student is too invisibly wealthy to properly conceive.