WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#431

Post by simias » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:03 AM UTC

leoharsha2 wrote: post #344

justboxing wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've knows Facebook tracks everything Not disputing this, but when you say 'we' I think you mean the The rest 95% either don't know, or could care less even if they know. I've told my non-techie fam and friends about data harvesting, privacy, and how facebook tracks everything, only to be ignored or outright ridiculed ("Oh you techies are so paranoid"). Many of my friends in India (where I was raised) and elsewher…

I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops! Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secr…

>I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops!

Has this ever been proved or is it just an urban legend? I keep hearing this anecdote but I always thought it was fishy and could easily be explained by a simple coincidence. Like these people who claim that the Facebook app is listening to them continuously to match keywords for ads.

My girlfriend and I are in our early 30's, she's been regularly targeted for pregnancy-related products for the past 5 years at least. It seems that for most advertisers you don't need a super fancy algorithm harvesting thousands of data points, simply "woman age 25-35" is probably good enough to assume that pregnancy is likely. Undoubtedly Target has that information, they thought that it was plausible that she could be pregnant (or would be in the close future) so they sent pregnancy-related material. When it turned out that this person was actually pregnant they thought Target was surprisingly prescient. Of course that's not counting the hundreds of people who potentially received the same offer but were not actually pregnant and discarded it immediately as junk mail.

I'm sure the profiling takes place but this anecdote probably overplays how accurate these predictions are. Facebook and Google are in an other league though, they have access to so much more personal info, I'm sure these companies "know" many of their users better than any of their friends or relative ever will.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#432

Post by hycaria » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:05 AM UTC

oldcynic wrote: post #418

hycaria wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see that through facebook ... ? Friend feeds ? Liked pages ? I've hidden pretty much everyone, only keeping a few music or art pages, only go on facebook maybe once a week anyways. I use messenger a lot though. I hate typing on phones so not many texts, and whatsapp web interface is not that great (and it's not as widely used by my friends, and it's owned by facebook anyways so what's the difference ?). Actua…

> most average things ever ie sports and such (which I don't follow -at all-). Like, really, you have nothing better on me ? To me, that is part of the problem. For years Facebook, and Google, have been telling the world they understand us better than we know ourselves, and all the fine-grained ways they can categorise and predict us. They actually seem to believe it. Then when they allow us to look at what they have…

Then what's the problem if it's not actually that good for people who leave few, contradictory elements (maybe I would've been easier profiled if I was labelled female for an example). They try to sell me stuff which I won't be interested in, seems fine to me.

As for the last part, could you be more precise ? What exactly could happen that would be bad to you ?

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#433

Post by powerapple » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:08 AM UTC

We are in the connected world. News can be generated by anyone and travel very very fast. That's the reality. In the fast you have to talk to people knowing what they think, now you can do it quickly and at massive scale. We will have more and more information out there anyway, regardless how many researchers working on cyber security and other problems. The only way to go back is to unplug electricity grid? Really? There is nothing wrong with Facebook. And that's how technology can empower people to do both good and bad things. Yes, US people are not happy with the election, journalists now have a revenge, but blaming technology? really?

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#434

Post by Tarks » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:09 AM UTC

hycaria wrote: post #402

ramphastidae wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I’ve been explaining this stuff to friends for years. Even the most intelligent and rational dismiss it as paranoia or say, “I don’t care, I have nothing to hide anyway.”

I don't put that much data out, but I don't mind being profiled. I like being suggested music that I'm susceptible to like based on other people. I think it's fine if one can infer out of my lifestyle that I would be interested in x or warn for risks of y. What is wrong with it ? I'm probably no statistical anomaly, I don't mind being part of some artificial cluster somewhere, helping having a more accurate portrayal…

> I am not interesting enough that anyone will come for me specifically anyways.

No single raindrop believes it's responsible for the storm.

They don't care about you specifically, if you can profile people accurately they have a much easier time of adjusting perspectives for your own aims. You've likely already seen the results of this with the latest American election.

It's gone far beyond getting you to buy more music and they're just warming up.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#435

Post by samsord » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:25 AM UTC

hycaria wrote: post #402

ramphastidae wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I’ve been explaining this stuff to friends for years. Even the most intelligent and rational dismiss it as paranoia or say, “I don’t care, I have nothing to hide anyway.”

I don't put that much data out, but I don't mind being profiled. I like being suggested music that I'm susceptible to like based on other people. I think it's fine if one can infer out of my lifestyle that I would be interested in x or warn for risks of y. What is wrong with it ? I'm probably no statistical anomaly, I don't mind being part of some artificial cluster somewhere, helping having a more accurate portrayal…

This may be okay for you individually. But Facebook will treat someone with bipolar or serious impulse control issues just the same way... Assuming some level of accuracy, an algorithm could predict when someone is having a manic episode, susceptible. Its predatory and dangerous. The vast majority of people are not aware of how to protect themselves from out-of-hand tech giants and their customers. Getting ahead is becoming about how well you can unplug so that you are not being puppeteered. We all need some counter-intelligence know-how.

I suggest, use rational means to work out for yourself what products are best for you and your budget, or on the other hand what political affiliations actualy represent your interests. Figuring out what's real in the world is a big task and only the most vigilant will be okay, or blow the whistle so the average person might be.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#436

Post by TheArcane » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:26 AM UTC

propman wrote: post #26

I don't get what changed? We've knows Facebook tracks everything, we've known Google does the same thing. If you've ever developed anything in messenger even today, it's amazing how much information is given. We know all these sites track everything you do outside of Facebook too. Everyone has been trying to get them to stop, we know it's illegal to build a profile on someone but Facebook gets around that by building…

> Is google next?

I think Facebook has nothing on Google. One trip to the MyActivity console on Google is enough to creep anyone out.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#437

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:27 AM UTC

simias wrote: post #431

leoharsha2 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops! Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secr…

>I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops! Has this ever been proved or is it just an urban legend? I keep hearing this anecdote but I always thought it was fishy and could easily be ex…

I think you prove the point you're denying. You say you don't need fancy algos, but companies are wasting advertising on your gf by using basic indicators (age, sex) when in the Target case the advertising was, well, targeted.

If advertisers know what will get you to push the buy button then they can use that against you. Advertising pregnancy pants to those who aren't pregnant will almost always fail, and from the advertisers perspective it wastes an opportunity to push a product that you might buy.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#438

Post by simonh » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:29 AM UTC

simias wrote: post #431

leoharsha2 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops! Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secr…

>I have nothing to hide” - most of the people a pregnant teenager being outed by the store Target, after it mined her purchase data – larger handbags, headache pills, tissues – and sent her a “congratulations” message as marketing, which her unknowing father got instead. Oops! Has this ever been proved or is it just an urban legend? I keep hearing this anecdote but I always thought it was fishy and could easily be ex…

It looks like the pregnant teenager thing may have originated as a theoretical example. However the story about Facebook publicising people’s recent purchases, including telling one guy’s wife about some Jewelry he bought, is absolutely true.

https://www.wired.com/2010/03/facebook-beacon-2/

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#439

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

_jal wrote: post #148

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them, as asking for a lawyer when they’re at your door inquiring about a missing neighborhood kid is probably counterproductive and escalates attention on you unnecessarily. It’s a fine opinion when common sense is involved . I don’t have a problem with the sentiment, just watching people who digest YouTube and shout “where’s your probable c…

I'm pretty sure that idiots like that will be idiots no matter what advice they stumble over. But I have to say, > Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them I get what you're saying, but the point of the advice is that, in a situation to which the advice is applicable, you don't fully understand the implications of anything you may say , so your best play is to clam up and get…

>your best play is to clam up and get a lawyer. //

Your best play if you want to waste police time because you for some reason hate society and think helping to make it run smoothly infringes on your rights - because fuck those guys, right, they're not paying you to search for the kid you just saw walking off with Ann Ominous, why should you help.

Hyperbole; but I think it illustrates the counterpoint sufficiently.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder tells everyone to delete Facebook

#440

Post by coloredtopbar » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 11:34 AM UTC

justboxing wrote: post #297

setr wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fact that the coffee shop or bar is brimming with overhead cameras is completely lost on them because it is mostly invisible With the coffee shop, it makes sense; the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. And even if it were, the expectation is that this would be for academic purposes; that…

> the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. Right. Except that this is also not true. Source: "A crashed advertisement reveals the code of the facial recognition system used by a pizza shop in Oslo..." => https://twitter.com/gamblelee/status/862307447276544000?lang...

The word "reveals" is used because it is not expected by the average person. Otherwise it would be something like "confirms expectation".