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Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

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Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#111

Post by Dylan16807 »

notahacker wrote: post #45
Mantipath wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. 3 MPH would have made a difference. So would 3 MPH less after that, and 3MPH more... heck, if it had been going 2 MPH total she'd probably be fine! In the aftermath of a front collision it would always have been safer if the car had been going slightly slower, regardless of the speed limit. The strangest part of watching this story unfold has been discovering that some people have faith that speed limits are an…

According to the UK DOT the estimated pedestrian accident survival rate is 55% at 30mph and just 5% at 40mph (due to kinetic energy rather than reaction times) so 3mph in this range is not exactly an insignificant difference. The strangest thing about watching this story is that people who are apparently ignorant of this still feel sufficiently certain of the relative unimportance of speed differences in this range t…

> According to the UK DOT the estimated pedestrian accident survival rate is 55% at 30mph and just 5% at 40mph (due to kinetic energy rather than reaction times) so 3mph in this range is not exactly an insignificant difference.

You'd have that range whether people went at the speed limit, above the speed limit, or below the speed limit. As long as speed limits are made with actual speeds taken into account (they are) that argument is irrelevant to whether you should speed. It just means that if you really want to be safe to hit someone you shouldn't go above 25mph, no matter what the speed limit is.

> The strangest thing about watching this story is that people who are apparently ignorant of this still feel sufficiently certain of the relative unimportance of speed differences in this range to sneer at other people for commenting on it.

The speed limit here was at least 40, wasn't it? Your own numbers say that the differences are unimportant above 40.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#112

Post by heyyyouu »

qplex wrote: post #83
Someone wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”If the woman suddenly walked in front of the car at the last minute, I don't see how the situation could have been avoided” Likely, but not necessarily. Depending (hugely!) on what actually happened, it might be that the car should have started slowing down before the woman changed course. As an extreme example, if you’re driving at 50 mph and come up behind a kid cycling at the side of the road with a foot separati…

There definitely exists a sort of pre-cognitive human quality to traffic. Sometimes you just slow down on a subconscious hunch without any information on that particular situation. Or you might be very conscious not to slow down if you're driving a motorcycle in Asia in heavy traffic trying to make a turn with a huge truck barreling behind you. There are massive differences in road cultures between countries, and it…

This is a really great point. I wonder if at some point self driving cars will be taught with these regional anomalies in mind. And will they be activated/changed depending on where the car is shipped/activated (Asia vs. America)?

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#114

Post by herogreen »

Mantipath wrote: post #26
rhacker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually really sucks to hear, I was hoping that SDVs would adhere and never break the speed limit. 3 MPH at the forces we're talking about can actually make a difference in life or death.

Sure. 3 MPH would have made a difference. So would 3 MPH less after that, and 3MPH more... heck, if it had been going 2 MPH total she'd probably be fine! In the aftermath of a front collision it would always have been safer if the car had been going slightly slower, regardless of the speed limit. The strangest part of watching this story unfold has been discovering that some people have faith that speed limits are an…

You forgot that Ek = 0.5 * m * v² So it is "more dangerous" to be 3 MPH above the speed limit when the speed limit is higher.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#115

Post by tintor »

cbhl wrote: post #28
rhacker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually really sucks to hear, I was hoping that SDVs would adhere and never break the speed limit. 3 MPH at the forces we're talking about can actually make a difference in life or death.

Waymo discovered sections of Mountain View where "the flow of traffic" was routinely 5-10 mph over the speed limit, and driving at the speed limit was actually more dangerous because it caused human drivers to try and go around the vehicle.

>> it caused human drivers to try and go around

Nope, drivers made that decision on their own. They were not forced into it.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#116

Post by sdrothrock »

jaweb wrote: post #60

It's interesting how high profile this post-crash analysis is - name another time you read so much commentary about the details that caused a car crash? It seems to me that this is exposing a few gaps in how we think about driverless cars currently: - A framework for how cars should be making "moral" decisions (the trolley problem [0]) - A defined process for post car crash investigations - akin to the process in air…

> name another time you read so much commentary about the details that caused a car crash?

Doesn't this happen every time a Tesla is involved, too? I think this might be so high-profile because it's the first automated vehicle incident (that I'm aware of) that involves a pedestrian.

I know that one of the Tesla incidents resulted in the driver's death, but that was clearly user error. IIRC Tesla was very quick to release the data on the incident as well, so it was pretty clear versus this situation, which is mostly people guessing.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#117

Post by IncRnd »

danso wrote: post #44

The NYT just published a graphic that purports to show the location of the vehicle and the victim: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/20/us/self-drivi... This is the first report I've seen that indicates the Uber AV was in the right lane. Remember that the victim was crossing from left to right, and that all of the visible damage on the AV is on the right-side bumper. It's very hard to imagine a scenario in…

From the article:

“It’s possible that Uber’s automated driving system did not detect the pedestrian, did not classify her as a pedestrian, or did not predict her departure from the median,” Smith said in an email. “I don’t know whether these steps occurred too late to prevent or lessen the collision or whether they never occurred at all, but the lack of braking or swerving whatsoever is alarming and suggests that the system never anticipated the collision.”

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#118

Post by lsaferite »

sdrothrock wrote: post #107
danso wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty clear fail. And yet the police were so quick to say that camera footage indicates that Uber was likely not at fault. It was so quick that it makes me inclined to think it's pretty obvious. However, after the SF Chronicle published its exclusive interview with the Tempe's chief of police, the Tempe Police PR person had to issue a statement that, "Tempe Police Department does not determine fault in ve…

> And yet the police were so quick to say that camera footage indicates that Uber was likely not at fault. I was surprised at that -- it doesn't seem to me that the police would have the technical knowledge of Uber's hardware and algorithms to categorically state that, let alone so quickly.

I fall more into the "AZ wants the SDC companies in state and having a death due to a SDC would hamper that with the public" camp. Better to find the SDC not at fault and save face.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#120

Post by phyzome »

danso wrote: post #88
mirimir wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so now she's crossing three lanes. So that's about 9 meters. At 1-3 meters per second for her, and 17 meters/second for the Uber SUV, it should have seen her 3-9 seconds (50-150 meters) before impact. That's a pretty clear fail. I wonder what the Uber's field of view is. At what distance should it have detected stuff about 9 meters off track? But she did likely walk out from landscaping. So perhaps she initial…

> That's a pretty clear fail. And yet the police were so quick to say that camera footage indicates that Uber was likely not at fault. It was so quick that it makes me inclined to think it's pretty obvious. However, after the SF Chronicle published its exclusive interview with the Tempe's chief of police, the Tempe Police PR person had to issue a statement that, "Tempe Police Department does not determine fault in ve…

I mean... the police just make shit up all the time. And Arizona was very happy to attract Uber with their regulation-free state law.

The fact that they came out with a statement instead of saying "we don't comment on ongoing investigations" makes it even more shady.

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