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Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

theguardian.com

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Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#341

Post by dTal »

relyio wrote: post #36
freyir wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so the quote [2004] isn't out of context: Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Friend]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks

I'm sure you can do a better job at illustrating your point than ressucitating a +10y old quote from Zuck, 19 at the time. Teenagers and college students say a lot of condescending, dumb, immature stuff in group discussions. It's not news and no evidence at all.

It's not some random edgy thing he said - he is literally describing his attitude towards the actual thing under discussion, the sanctity of people's private data on thefacebook.com. And the attitude displayed is not just questionable, but Literally The Worst. I suppose we're meant to believe he had some kind of spiritual awakening about it? I'm sure becoming a billionaire really made him see the error of his ways.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#342

Post by na85 »

24gttghh wrote: post #243
na85 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this enforced? What is software development as a field doing to regulate itself and ensure members follow this guide?

I think ethical guidelines by definition are not enforced per se. They're just that, guidelines. However, as mentioned by GP there are boards of ethics at universities and medical/engineering organizations and such that might be able to dole out a modicum of justice. For instance, not following those guidelines would conceivably end one's membership of the ACM, and many companies have their own ethical guidelines (I…

Exactly. Nothing is done and the code of ethics is not enforced.

Let's say I'm a structural engineer or a lawyer and I act legally but unethically: I can be censured by my professional association/college, because law and engineering are professions and thus are self-regulating.

Can the same be said of software development? Certainly not. The cult of the amateur, self-taught basement coder and the entirety of startup culture are antithetical to professional ethics.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#343

Post by hinkley »

zbentley wrote: post #312
JabavuAdams wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make your new hires watch the multiple camera feeds and lidar of that woman being run over again and again until they really really understand that they're working on life-critical systems.

That might help if you're making something that, if broken/misused, can directly physically harm people. What about if you're making a social media app, and the ethics are less clear-cut? It's not like you can show every new hire footage of Trump and drive home the negative impact of data mining/sharing--the causal link is tenuous, the viewer might sympathize politically, or they just might not care about politics. E…

Even nerds understand that one painful social experience can have lasting negative effects.

It’s blinders. Plain and simple. I’ve worked with too many developers who will pander for money. A few that tried to shame me for not being on board (my life skills tell me calling someone a whore in a team meeting is a bad career move but it doesn’t stop me from staring at them and thinking it). When enough money is on the line principles get set aside. We like to think our cohort are above this sort of thing but the evidence clearly doesn’t support it.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#344

Post by dTal »

freyir wrote: post #15
malikNF wrote: post #3

What's utterly horrifying about this whole thing is how the media is acting as if this is some sort of surprise. Like what did you think was happening at a company collecting data about billions of people? Especially at a company that has a CEO who is famous for calling its own users dumb fu * * s? A company that experimented on at risk teens. Like come on. --edit--- Or lordy, didn't expect this comment to blow up th…

Just so the quote [2004] isn't out of context: Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Friend]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks

You forgot the preamble, "Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard - Just ask."

Makes it even creepier. He was willing to dox people for social cred, before he realised the data had financial value.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#345

Post by cookiecaper »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #105
scottmf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do share that list.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/list/ There's your list. Seriously. I obviously can't share with you the list of specific clients I work for, but this attitude is pervasive enough that you should assume that any and all major corporations have this same mindset. All of them.

Yeah, anyone who has spent much time in Real Companies will know that this is completely predictable and that it occurs virtually everywhere. Don't give them the data if you don't expect them to harvest it.

This is true for basically everything, even stuff that is typically acknowledged as sensitive. I've consulted for big financial groups whose customer service reps had completely unfettered access to SSNs, birthdays, and everything else they had on millions of customers. I would not have been surprised in the least to learn that some programmers in the company, either acting on their own behalf or acting at the request of a superior, were taking samples of this data for "unofficial" use.

Maybe the takeaway is that the SV brogrammer is not quite as special as he/she thought, and not exempt from the temptations that afflict the rest of us.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#346

Post by mnm1 »

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #29
meuk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is extremely naive to think that Facebook does not use all the data they get about you. Then again, most people are very naive about this kind of everyday technology.

That's just your perspective. I live in the Germany where we have very strong data protection laws. Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?

If you're dealing with large companies, it is. You should assume that. I have no doubt every major company in the world is covering up some serious crimes constantly. And FB has been egregious and it has been covered by the news. Also, why do you expect German laws to protect you from an American company?

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#347

Post by aylmao »

chimeracoder wrote: post #303
mc32 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree with you in characterizing it as a breach of trust. That it is. Operatives in Washington, however, are trying to characterize it as something it is not. It's not Russians hacking in, it's not part of some effort to destabilize democracy, etc. That characterization and demonization is indicative of the mindset of those people and that may be even pose more danger than the breach of trust by Facebook.

> It's not Russians hacking in, it's not part of some effort to destabilize democracy, etc. I'll avoid the word "hacking" since it's used to mean a lot of different things to different people, but it absolutely could be part of an effort to destabilize or undermine (US) democracy. What we've seen is definitely a breach of responsibility and a breach of trust. It's also probably a breach of the law, since the data Fac…

It's no secret that 3rd parties can get access to your facebook data though. there's been apps asking for permission to access your facebook data for years. That's the whole point of the facebook developer platform.

Do we know what data was harvested? Cause if its data that's supposed to be private then yeah, that's some murky business. If its public info, or info that can be accessed if you give an app permission to log-in, then is that really a "breach"?

I mean, it's terrible and CA was definitely misusing it, but if I install an app and it asks for permission to use my location and my contacts, and I grant them, is that a break of trust and a breach of the law on the Apple/Google front? What should Apple/Google be doing to protect my privacy?

Legit questions here; I do hope something is figured out and less people fall into this kind of trap. I've heard of Android games whose purpose actually is to harvest a ton of personal info. Apple seems to veto its apps better, and maybe that's the solution-- Facebook should veto 3rd parties better (Google should too, before something like this hits the fan).

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#348

Post by tremon »

cyphar wrote: post #232
generalk wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we not let this become framed as a "breach"? No > systems were compromised. Nothing of Facebook's was > accessed that wasn't supposed to be accessed. This was > data intentionally exposed by Facebook, just exfiltrated > and given to an entity whom Facebook hadn't authorized. This is similar to a HIPAA "breach" where the word doesn't imply that a security system was compromised, but that protected data was acces…

A much better example would be GDPR, which comes into force EU-wide in about two months.

Actually, the regulation itself already is in force, and has been since the day it was ratified. There's just a moratorium on enforcement in the first two years of this EU directive, so that business (and society) has time to adjust to the new reality.

The distinction may be very subtle, but it's important to know that following the 25th of May, businesses can no longer claim to be "in the process" of implementing it -- they have already had two years to prepare.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#349

Post by Aunche »

spacehome wrote: post #163
relyio wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you can do a better job at illustrating your point than ressucitating a +10y old quote from Zuck, 19 at the time. Teenagers and college students say a lot of condescending, dumb, immature stuff in group discussions. It's not news and no evidence at all.

It's the core of the business. I'm sure we'd all like to have more recent direct quotes, but Zuckerberg is much more careful with his public image than he used to be. We have to infer it from the actions of the company he controls. I see no evidence anything's changed besides the PR.

Back then, it actually was "dumb" to give a random website so much personal information. Facebook had no reputation. Zuck could have stored passwords in plaintext and hacked email addresses and Paypal accounts. Now, we know that Facebook is a legitimate business, so we know they aren't going to do anything too illegal with our data.

Re: Ex-Facebook insider says covert data harvesting was routine

#350

Post by thousandautumns »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #105
scottmf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do share that list.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/list/ There's your list. Seriously. I obviously can't share with you the list of specific clients I work for, but this attitude is pervasive enough that you should assume that any and all major corporations have this same mindset. All of them.

If you "I obviously can't share with you the list of specific clients I work for", then don't immediately precede that with "I can give you an entire list of F500 companies I've worked at that have the same mindset."

That was your original claim. Listing the Fortune 500 doesn't actually add anything substantive to the discussion or add evidence to your position (if anything, I doubt you even more now).

Do us all a favor and don't make boastful claims in order to make a point, if you are unable or unwilling to follow through.

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